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Old 11-20-2017, 12:02 PM   #721
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Man AJ/Brock was dope
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:50 PM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slik View Post
Vince definitely likes KO.

You don't get to feud with HIS SON SHANE and headbutt him if he thinks you are awful at what you do. Vince has certain things he wants from every match and the Jericho-Owens match didn't meet what he wanted.
Yea I didn't think that one through
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Old 11-20-2017, 01:52 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by KIRA View Post
Yea I didn't think that one through
One of the rare times a TPWW member has admitted they were wrong. Just wanted to mark that.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:21 PM   #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Contrary to internet opinion, Brock Lesnar is a very, very, very fucking good professional wrestler. I'd put money on him selling and everyone being a fucking mark because Brock is the best.

It's funny what effect selling can have if it is done right by people who are good.
Don't think anyone ever said he wasn't good. However, there was a period where he was just kinda lazy. Going through the motions and having the same match, and people started to tire of it a bit. Then the Dean Ambrose stuff came out, and that blew it up even more. I even made a whole thread on it.

All that said, in the past year or so, I think we've seen brock put in more effort to make his matches more interesting, and not the same old formula each time.

I would still put over AJ as the main reason why that match was so good, as he can make a broom stick look like a million bucks, but Brock definitely put in work as well. Great job by both guys.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:25 PM   #725
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Don't understand Damninator's beef.

It's good that some finishers are protected.

You can have someone kick out of it, but save it for mania, so it's a really big moment.
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Old 11-20-2017, 02:59 PM   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Don't understand Damninator's beef.

It's good that some finishers are protected.

You can have someone kick out of it, but save it for mania, so it's a really big moment.
Yeah, I don't really disagree, but a few noteworthy counterpoints:

1) It's a little weird because it's pretty much JUST the F5 (with a few minor exceptions), so while it does build the move up, it also tends to chip away at the guys succumbing to it at first glance.
2) If you are building up/protecting a finish, I would argue that a World Champ vs Champ match at pseudo-Wrestlemania would be a time you could get away with a kickout.
3) I don't feel like they're doing a great job of selling that the F5 is in a class of its own if they're not going to do anything with #1. Given how much they wedge shit like "the one time a year where Smackdown and Raw go head to head in competition" they should be able to verbally sell that there's a reason ain't nobody kicking outta that.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:17 PM   #727
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Ouch.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:24 PM   #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Don't think anyone ever said he wasn't good. However, there was a period where he was just kinda lazy. Going through the motions and having the same match, and people started to tire of it a bit. Then the Dean Ambrose stuff came out, and that blew it up even more. I even made a whole thread on it.

All that said, in the past year or so, I think we've seen brock put in more effort to make his matches more interesting, and not the same old formula each time.

I would still put over AJ as the main reason why that match was so good, as he can make a broom stick look like a million bucks, but Brock definitely put in work as well. Great job by both guys.
Eh, I don't really agree. I think it's the smarky smarks like us who want to see more out of Brock. I think Brock "gets it" and knows that if he had the CM Punk match every night, then people would start bitching about him having the same CM Punk match. Brock brings it when there is a guy worth bringing it to. I had no doubt that Brock vs. AJ was going to be awesome.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:27 PM   #729
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The problem is that the F5 being built up as such a devastating move is that we've seen people kick out of multiple ones before, that they haven't really told that story and that it's a professional wrestling thing when they are so deep in this world of sports entertainment. They've conditioned their fans to expect multiple kick-outs. I've actually seen complaints about Jeff Hardy beating guys with one Swanton Bomb on the internet. They've gone down that path and now they want to back track and go in the right direction, but everything else is so goofy and exaggerated, then you want to things to build to a quiet statement. It's weird. They should really take that much care with all their finishes, or just have a general rule that finishing moves end things, unless it is supposed to be a big match where a false finish can mean something. It could take years of re-conditioning though.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:41 PM   #730
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Randy Orton is like the current only wrestler that knows how to protect his finisher.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:43 PM   #731
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I remember during the HHH/HBK feud they built up "It only takes one" referring to the super kick. Now the Uso's use 7 super kicks a match as transitional moves.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:59 PM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragile X View Post
One of the rare times a TPWW member has admitted they were wrong. Just wanted to mark that.
When you are right you are right theres no point in fighting it I dunno it just seems natural to own up.

I still Hate Vince though.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:40 PM   #733
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I think that was one of the best PPVs in a long time other than the main event. They didn't put over a single newcomer other than Braun. Legitimately felt like they dropped the ball, Joe, Balor, Roode, Nakamura all look weak now.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:42 PM   #734
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Smackdown "The land of opportunity to create new stars, where it isn't about the authority figures". Final three team members: John Cena, Randy Orton, authority figure
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:04 PM   #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stickman View Post
I think that was one of the best PPVs in a long time other than the main event. They didn't put over a single newcomer other than Braun. Legitimately felt like they dropped the ball, Joe, Balor, Roode, Nakamura all look weak now.
Weak isnt the right term...i dont think
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:13 PM   #736
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Weak isnt the right term...i dont think
Irrelevant?
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Old 11-20-2017, 10:20 PM   #737
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No...they didnt lose anything from the match they just didnt gain anything. Net neutral
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:56 PM   #738
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Nobody can get too crushed by Survivor Series, can they?
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:57 PM   #739
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I mean you could but youd really have to go out of your way to do it
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:04 AM   #740
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Given my overall dislike for the main event one petty little thing that really bugged me was the commentators nothing HHH brought in Nakumura and Roode. It just felt unnecesary to me unless its been played up on T.V. before.

Just felt like another little HHH Ego rub.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:17 AM   #741
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duuh
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:57 AM   #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Don't understand Damninator's beef.

It's good that some finishers are protected.

You can have someone kick out of it, but save it for mania, so it's a really big moment.
Would it have killed them to have Brock pick him up one more time, like "Fuck that!" instead of going for the pin, and deliver one more, then get the pin?

Doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:01 AM   #743
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Exactly. If Vince really hated KO, he wouldn’t be featured as much as he is, wouldn’t have a WWE Network special and wouldn’t have been on SS at all
They...pretty much weren't? A kick-off match doesn't count for anything, and their 5 seconds of interference in the main event were pretty much expected by everybody, so yeah...I'll go on the record and say they really weren't on the show at all, for all intents and purposes.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:07 AM   #744
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Have you not been watching Smackdown? They'll be a huge part of it tomorrow, I'm sure.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:12 AM   #745
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I'm sure they will, and I'm well aware (as much as I wish I weren't) of the Shane feud story. I was just saying from my personal POV, you might as well say they weren't on the show, that's all.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:22 AM   #746
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But it made sense for them not to be, considering they're vehemently against Shane on the show, and Survivor Series is all about brand pride. In kayfabe, there's no reason for them to have brand pride. It made sense.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:39 AM   #747
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Yeah, I don't really disagree, but a few noteworthy counterpoints:

1) It's a little weird because it's pretty much JUST the F5 (with a few minor exceptions), so while it does build the move up, it also tends to chip away at the guys succumbing to it at first glance.
2) If you are building up/protecting a finish, I would argue that a World Champ vs Champ match at pseudo-Wrestlemania would be a time you could get away with a kickout.
3) I don't feel like they're doing a great job of selling that the F5 is in a class of its own if they're not going to do anything with #1. Given how much they wedge shit like "the one time a year where Smackdown and Raw go head to head in competition" they should be able to verbally sell that there's a reason ain't nobody kicking outta that.
This is the exception in that it's Brock, and nobody has kicked out of it in years now. It beat Goldberg at Mania.

That main event was utterly infuriating to me. With all that talent, all that potential, I was so excited to see this match. They could have done so much, so many fun and interesting cross-ups to be had, and you could have done a hell of a lot to elevate guys that need it. Instead, they line up, one after another, to lose like jabronis to set up HHH and Strowman, which they think will be huge but won't be.

This show was a real wake-up call to just how bad the dynamic of the booking has gotten at the top of the promotion. It's no wonder they're doing their lowest attendances for Raw and Smackdown in years. Absolutely abysmal booking.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:20 AM   #748
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This is the exception in that it's Brock, and nobody has kicked out of it in years now. It beat Goldberg at Mania.

That main event was utterly infuriating to me. With all that talent, all that potential, I was so excited to see this match. They could have done so much, so many fun and interesting cross-ups to be had, and you could have done a hell of a lot to elevate guys that need it. Instead, they line up, one after another, to lose like jabronis to set up HHH and Strowman, which they think will be huge but won't be.

This show was a real wake-up call to just how bad the dynamic of the booking has gotten at the top of the promotion. It's no wonder they're doing their lowest attendances for Raw and Smackdown in years. Absolutely abysmal booking.
Its bordering on being WCW post the nWo bubble. Midcard ripping it up while the main event is the drizzly shits. The guys who should be true main eventers get rolled back down to the midcard when a big show rolls around.
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Old 11-21-2017, 04:24 AM   #749
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The problem is that the F5 being built up as such a devastating move is that we've seen people kick out of multiple ones before, that they haven't really told that story and that it's a professional wrestling thing when they are so deep in this world of sports entertainment. They've conditioned their fans to expect multiple kick-outs. I've actually seen complaints about Jeff Hardy beating guys with one Swanton Bomb on the internet. They've gone down that path and now they want to back track and go in the right direction, but everything else is so goofy and exaggerated, then you want to things to build to a quiet statement. It's weird. They should really take that much care with all their finishes, or just have a general rule that finishing moves end things, unless it is supposed to be a big match where a false finish can mean something. It could take years of re-conditioning though.
Yes, in the realm of overusing finishers, it is kinda weird seeing it being scaled back. A notable example is the end of Lesnar/Joe... Joe is this monster and credible threat, and the F5 kills him dead. In hindsight, though, if he continues to kill people dead with it instead of needing to hit it 12 times, it will seem like less asshole booking and more credibility building in hindsight. But because WWE has be so overboard for so long, we hadn't even noticed how Young Bucks-like a philosophy the company had until they jarringly started to pull that back.

However, if they continue to make finishers mean more AND pepper shit like the finish of the Asuka match on RAW (She didn't even use the Asuka Lock, just a flurry of strikes, and a kick to the head, and : poof :, RIP Dana) the correction can eventually be made. Not an overnight fix, but at least it's being addressed.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:22 PM   #750
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I felt Nakamaura was booked very well minus the fact he had to lose early. But his offense was incredible and he used it on Triple H and Kurt Angle.
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:26 PM   #751
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I felt Nakamaura was booked very well minus the fact he had to lose early. But his offense was incredible and he used it on Triple H and Kurt Angle.
But that's sort of like saying "that stream train was chugging along quite nicely until it fell off that cliff."
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Old 11-21-2017, 03:26 PM   #752
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Also, controversial internet opinion: They are making a mistake by going this hard with Braun.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:17 PM   #753
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Also, controversial internet opinion: They are making a mistake by going this hard with Braun.
Actually, I just realized Dave Meltzer said the same thing on his show today.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:18 PM   #754
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Noid sheep,,,,,,,
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:23 PM   #755
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Anyone, with out exception, that they go all in on will be turned by the audience.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:22 PM   #756
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Actually, I just realized Dave Meltzer said the same thing on his show today.
Now that Meltzer said it, I'm inclined to agree.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:24 PM   #757
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Anyone, with out exception, that they go all in on will be turned by the audience.
There's this current anti-Roman swing that will help anyone not him; but as soon as they get wind there's a "new plan," I think you're right.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:03 AM   #758
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Also, controversial internet opinion: They are making a mistake by going this hard with Braun.
While i dont necessarily disagree fans are calling for him and we (IWC) have blasted the WWE for years for not listening. Cant have it both ways.
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Old 11-22-2017, 03:51 AM   #759
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I kind of disagree with that. You can choose someone the fans want that is able to handle the spot. The fans were calling for Zack Ryder once upon a time. Whoops. And it's not like his reactions are molten. He's the most different thing on a bland show. As soon as you get him to act normally, the crowd will see the mechanics.
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Old 11-22-2017, 04:43 AM   #760
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Well, not now. But there was a time when even just the "catering cameos" by Ryder were one of the biggest pops of the night. They didn't need to give the guy the Jinder push, but it seemed like they were *trying* to keep him off TV out of spite.

As for Braun, I don't entirely agree that folks will just instantly be down on him if he's the new direction. He does tick every box that folks think about when they think of what Vince wants, and I for one am super surprised they rode right past that for as long as they did.

What I *am* leery about, however, is that they would try to change what he is. He is a brutal giant. He's about as "immortal" as Undertaker minus scary music. He just wants competition like he's fucking One Punch Man. The company officially gets behind him, and there is a big chance he will start doing some dancing and wearing lime green attire or some silly hat. He'll start getting made to look like a pussy or a coward when there is no need. There is too much history to not consider that WWE would find a way to derail his momentum... and then blame him for it.
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