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Old 06-06-2017, 09:38 PM   #41
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Luger winning the title from Hogan on Nitro in 97 was pretty shocking.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:13 PM   #42
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Oh, there was also Unforgiven 2003, right in the middle of the dreadful Triple H WHC "Reign of Terror" on RAW, which saw Goldberg capture the title, and not only that, he held the damn thing until Triple H got it back @ Armageddon 2003.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I'm pretty sure he was going to lose at SNME, just lost it a few days sooner.
I dunno, I feel like until he fucked himself over, Vince was planning for big things with RVD as WWE Champion, including a nice long reign featuring him constantly defending the WWE and ECW titles in alternating fashion.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:32 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Luger winning the title from Hogan on Nitro in 97 was pretty shocking.
I remember this being covered in the Timeline. Popped a good rating too. This was around the time Eddie Guerrero was testing high on likability in WCW. There was potential there to go forward past Starrcade '97 in some unique directions so that Goldberg and Scott Steiner weren't the only things you had coming through the pipeline.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:35 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
They've thrown the title on lower card guys enough in the 2 title era that you pretty much expect it when one is challenging. Jinder winning didn't shock me at all.


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Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
Jeff Hardy winning his first WWE Championship @ Armageddon 2008 was pretty shocking...he was in there with 2 guys with multiple WWE & WHC titles in Triple H and Edge in a triple threat. It was REALLY surprising that Triple H allowed himself to be the one pinned and put Hardy over IMHO. Classy move on the part of The Game.
This one did go through my head too. I had a feeling that Triple H vs. Randy Orton was the plan, so it seemed odd they would give Hardy the show. I thought they had sort of "swung and missed" with it earlier that year with Orton. Took me a little by surprise, just because of the timing.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:36 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drave View Post
Wyatt.
If you didn't read the dirt sheets, I can totally buy this. Well, more so Orton winning the Rumble. The only reason I caught wind of it was because I saw a report that the betting odds had flipped to favor him. I thought "What the fuck? Orton's in the tag division with Luke Harper and Bray Wyatt." But once Orton won the Rumble, the title picture became pretty evident.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:56 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Swagger, Daniel Bryan's first win, Punk's first win...

They've done the "guy who is jobbing in the midcard suddenly wins a title" thing for shock value so much that it's not shocking anymore. When a guy like that suddenly gets a title shot you pretty much expect them to win.
It has never been to the extent of Jinder Mahal who was a 5-star jobber until he became the #1 contender for the championship. I don't recall any other "midcard jobber" winning the strap. Maybe, JBL and The Miz if you're being strict.

As far as Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, and Jack Swagger winning the World Heavyweight Championship for the first time is concerned, the belt was already secondary and down the pecking order. While it wasn't as bad as the WWECW Championship, the World Heavyweight Championship was never the same once talents such as Edge, Batista, and the Undertaker were taken out of the title picture.

I've always believed that the WWE Championship has been a bit more protected than the retired World Heavyweight Championship.
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
If you didn't read the dirt sheets, I can totally buy this. Well, more so Orton winning the Rumble. The only reason I caught wind of it was because I saw a report that the betting odds had flipped to favor him. I thought "What the fuck? Orton's in the tag division with Luke Harper and Bray Wyatt." But once Orton won the Rumble, the title picture became pretty evident.
I do read Smeats Sheetz, but nothing else.


Just shocked because they have really taken away any mystique he once held. Now he just kinda reminds me of the estranged uncle who shows up random places trippin balls on LSD (courtesy TPWW Legend Frank Drebin) and rants about nothing.

The stupid ass graphics of worms and whatever else during his Orton match was fucking stupid and reminded me of those bad 90's video games where it was "cool" to have full motion video (a la Pit Fighter, Area 51).

He is nothing more than a tattooed-pajama-wearing-clown at this point. He needs a good injury angle and take a good 6 months off.


Which of course ends up with him returning as a badass submission machine.
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:31 PM   #49
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I was shocked when Morrison won the title... was looking forward to seeing Benoit vs Punk.

Shocked when Chavo won too.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:46 PM   #50
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Kane jumps to mind too, both when he won the ECW Championship and then the World Heavyweight Championship. He beat Chavo in something like 8 seconds @ WM 24 for the ECW belt, and then he wins the SD! Money in the Bank contract at Money in the Bank 2010, and cashed in later the same night, defeating Rey in what I believe made him the first superstar to win and cash in the contract successfully on the same night IIRC.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Guru Dave View Post
It has never been to the extent of Jinder Mahal who was a 5-star jobber until he became the #1 contender for the championship. I don't recall any other "midcard jobber" winning the strap. Maybe, JBL and The Miz if you're being strict.

As far as Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, and Jack Swagger winning the World Heavyweight Championship for the first time is concerned, the belt was already secondary and down the pecking order. While it wasn't as bad as the WWECW Championship, the World Heavyweight Championship was never the same once talents such as Edge, Batista, and the Undertaker were taken out of the title picture.

I've always believed that the WWE Championship has been a bit more protected than the retired World Heavyweight Championship.
And the World title is secondary/down in the pecking order to the Universal title now. It's what the WHC title was back when the midcard guys won them. So them throwing it on Jinder once he became #1 contender shouldn't have been much of a shock as they've done it with the secondary title repeatedly. Sure, Jinder's a more glaring example of it but once he got the push, it became clear that it was at least a strong possibility they'd throw it on him like they've done so much before.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:56 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
I was shocked when Morrison won the title... was looking forward to seeing Benoit vs Punk.

Shocked when Chavo won too.
I remember when they stopped referring the ECW Championship as a "world title". The belt was once up for contention along with the World Heavyweight Championship and the WWE Championship for the Royal Rumble winner.

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Old 06-07-2017, 09:00 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
And the World title is secondary/down in the pecking order to the Universal title now. It's what the WHC title was back when the midcard guys won them. So them throwing it on Jinder once he became #1 contender shouldn't have been much of a shock as they've done it with the secondary title repeatedly.
I am assuming that you meant the WWE Championship. I still don't think it is secondary to the Universal Championship.

Back during the initial draft when the rosters were separate, the WHC on RAW and the WWE Championship on Smackdown were on an equal footing for a very long time. The WHC lost its luster when the brand extension rules were relaxed.
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:03 PM   #54
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With all the unifications back and forth, I honestly don't know what the official name for that title is anymore. lol

But Raw is still considered the main brand and its champion is Brock fucking Lesnar. It's the clear-cut top title in the company. Leaving the secondary title for them to fuck around with.
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Old 06-08-2017, 02:18 AM   #55
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I do see the point about the WWE Title usually not being as experimental, but then again, you also had Sheamus and The Miz as champions. Del Rio won it. Rey Mysterio won it for a token run. They had played fast and loose with it before.

Even during the brief unification period, Sheamus got another run that no one clamoring for. The idea that the belt goes on the best wrestler or the biggest star in the company is no longer true even with just one of them. James Ellsworth winning a Unified WWE Championship couldn't shock me, if the idea behind it was to try and get kids to believe in themselves because "anyone can make it."

They initially try the new championship on RAW, because I think their thinking is that the prestige of the WWE Title carries over with it to SmackDown, while the prestige of the RAW brand breathes meaning into the new belt on that show, making them even. So Jinder Mahal is probably supposed to have the more prestigious belt on the less prestigious show. Slightly more meaningless would be if Mahal had won a new belt on the lesser show, but that is arguing semantics at this point.

They tossed both the WWE and World Heavyweight Titles around (to the point where they basically ignored the reigns of CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Jack Swagger and Dolph Ziggler with the World Heavyweight Title at points), and they did it on both RAW and Smackers.

Basically: It's true that the WWE Title is probably supposed to be the belt with more prestige, but they blew all its capital a long while ago with the last brand split, and now belts only really mean something when Brock or Cena has them.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:45 AM   #56
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The universal title only gained it credibility when Lesnar won it. Balor was an "unknown entity" that held it for a day. KOs reign started with interference and had interference through out every title defense. Goldberg was about 50 when he held the title.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:10 PM   #57
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You can tell what they were going for though: a new champion for a new era. I'm sure the idea was to let Balor run and then turn him heel and have The Club with him if it got tired. When Balor got hurt, Kevin Owens was a "something new" idea too, but the problem was that they booked almost exactly like they booked Seth Rollins when he was WWE Champ, so you basically had a mid-carder with the belt. Goldberg winning it made it feel like something the big boys play with, and Brock holding it has been good.
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:06 AM   #58
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Eh.... I can take or leave Brock at this point. Kinda how Ambrose put it last year. He wants to come in, do his suplex spot and leave.

He is getting to be as boring as Reigns now. It'd be great to get a lil back and forth in a match and I think Joe would be a good opponent for that. Really hope they capitalize on Joe and try to build him after this 5 min title match.
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Old 06-09-2017, 11:19 AM   #59
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I was actually pretty shocked by Jinder despite usually being desensitized to "shock" title changes. The shock for me was a combination of him being a total jobber for months before it and as the belief that Rusev was coming back so Jinder was just a one-month program to keep Orton warm.

Had Jinder returned to the company looking the way he does now and being pushed strong, the title change wouldn't have shocked me.

MITB stopped shocking me after Punk's first win.
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Old 06-09-2017, 01:10 PM   #60
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Kinder wasn't really all that shocking. Last time I was shocked was when Rollins cashed in MiTB at Mania. Did not think they would ever use it during the main event at Mania.
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:15 PM   #61
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Luger winning the title from Hogan on Nitro in 97 was pretty shocking.
That was at the Palace. Guess who was there?
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Old 06-09-2017, 04:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by drave View Post
Eh.... I can take or leave Brock at this point. Kinda how Ambrose put it last year. He wants to come in, do his suplex spot and leave.

He is getting to be as boring as Reigns now. It'd be great to get a lil back and forth in a match and I think Joe would be a good opponent for that. Really hope they capitalize on Joe and try to build him after this 5 min title match.
It's funny you say that, because since that match with Brock, I could leave Ambrose.
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Old 06-09-2017, 06:06 PM   #63
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Loved the podcast (as always). I enjoyed the musings on the faulty philosophy of shocking title changes. If it's a shock that someone wins the belt, then they probably weren't ready to win it in the first place.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:14 AM   #64
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It's funny you say that, because since that match with Brock, I could leave Ambrose.
Yea, because they've done fuck all with him and he really hasn't done anything "interesting" IMO.

He really could have used more mic time with his Miz feud. Both of those guys can go on the mic, though Ambrose probably is more restricted based off shit he would say in his Moxley days.

That match should have been much better. Ambrose was hot at the time and should have "gone over" without going over. Always felt that both people in matches should go over regardless of who gets the "W". It was such a lazy fucking match that is a really big shit stain on Ambrose.

Its like Cena V Sandow, except Sandow actually looked GREAT in that match.

Brock is so tiring anymore, really. I know he is supposed to be an unstoppable monster, but it is the SSDD.

Joe will get 2-3 offensive moves and then it'll be over. ZZzzZZZzzZZZZZz
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:19 PM   #65
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Ambrose hasn't helped matters. There was the snoozer program with Jericho, the Austin podcast (which Ambrose look like a git, in my opinion), he got given the WWE Title and proceeded to get upstaged by AJ Styles, and then he was given the IC Title, which is a bit of an anchor.

I also think he looks horrible lately. When he was in The Shield, he had this alternative charm. When he first went lunatic, he would occasionally get stubble and let his hair grow out a bit more unkempt. It was about the time he grew the beard that I started thinking "Man, he looks just like...a normal guy..." I haven't seen him on RAW though. Maybe he's "freshened up" since then?

My interest in Ambrose on his own has decreased significantly, to the point where I'd place him last in terms of overall ranking when it comes to former Shield members. He could really use that Shield reunion more than any of them. That being said, I think there's a chance that he ends up in the Universal Title picture come WrestleMania -- with a Triple Threat between himself, Reigns and Rollins over the belt. They're balls-in with Reigns, but I can see them detouring Brock and putting him against Joe at Mania.

I'm not entirely sure it's just going to be Brock smash at the PPV. Something about the way Heyman set it up on RAW makes me think they might change plans and go with Joe. They've got this potential star-making thing right in front of them. Plus, I have a feeling that the plan was Balor, but that the idea was nixed because of credibility factors. Balor is giving up 100lbs to Brock. It's just a little too much. Whereas, if you put the belt on Joe, you can do Joe vs. Balor for the belt at SummerSlam, and burn through that rematch, and do Brock vs. Braun away from the title with the added bonus of Brock being pissed off.

Brock costs Joe the Universal Title with an F5 down the line to a Shield member, putting us in line for the Triple Threat at Mania, and then Joe reciprocates by attacking Brock in the Rumble and tossing him out. For the record, I think it could be Reigns and Nakamura as the final two in the Rumble, with people expecting Reigns to take it, but Nakamura wins and challenges John Cena at WrestleMania -- a match teased at the Network Special in Japan where Cena retains the WWE Title and Nakamura beats AJ Styles, with the last thing you see being a stand-off between Cena and Naks.

* Cena vs. Nakamura for the WWE Title
* Ambrose vs. Rollins vs. Reigns for the Universal Title
* Brock vs. Joe
* Triple H vs. Angle for Control of RAW
* Orton vs. Styles
* Shane vs. Owens

My basic way-off predictions for Mania 34.
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:39 PM   #66
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I liked Ambrose's program with Jericho.... wouldn't call it a snoozer......

Of course I would attribute that heavily to Jericho........
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:15 PM   #67
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The stuff with the plant? Eh, it wasn't for me. I can understand why they did everything on paper. It just didn't click and when people think Jericho vs. Ambrose, I think they had something with a bit more steak in mind.
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:18 PM   #68
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Backlund beating Bret Hart was very surprising
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Old 06-10-2017, 09:02 PM   #69
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Always a baffling move, but I think it was pointed out on a previous SCG podcast that George Foreman became Heavyweight Champion at 45 that year, and Backlund was the same age at the time. With that logic, it begins to make sense as to why they used Backlund as the transitional champion to Diesel, since he had already won it before.
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:16 PM   #70
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Going back and watching all the t.v leading up to it, the Iron Sheik besting Backlund was a massive shock
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:56 PM   #71
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Quote:
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Edge at New Year's Revolution 2006. Cena had just retained the WWE Championship in an Elimination Chamber match featuring Shawn Michaels, Kane, Kurt Angle, Carlito and Chris Masters, and out comes Vince, asking for the cage to be lifted, as Edge was cashing in the very first Money in the Bank right then and there.

I found it shocking due to the fact that there was really no precedent for a MitB holder to almost be guaranteed to win the WWE or WHC/Universal Championship, and also because for a 2-3 minute match at the end of the first PPV of 2006, Cena actually put up more of a fight than a lot of others in his position would or would be able to, and I honestly recall thinking Edge's opportunity was going up in smoke, but I was more than glad and overjoyed to be proven wrong.
Really wish they didn't have Vince come on stage and just had Edge's music play.
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Old 06-11-2017, 01:38 AM   #72
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It worked for that one, because there was no precedent. We didn't yet know that the Money in the Bank briefcase turned the WWE Title into the Hardcore Title. That really should have been the only switch of that manner they ever did -- just like Benoit using the Royal Rumble to jump brands should have been a one-time thing. The WWE introduces these loopholes, but then have a kayfabe legal department that doesn't fix them, haha.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:19 AM   #73
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Just wanted to thank everybody for the contributions - the show looking at the Most Shocking Title Changes in History is now available at the following link:

https://squaredcirclegazette.podbean...In_History.mp3

Join us as we discuss the most shocking title changes of all time! Taking your nominations, we look at some of the most jarring moments in wrestling history, and analyse the execution and follow-up of title changes such as Bret Hart beating Ric Flair, Chris Jericho becoming Undisputed Champion, Big Show beating Brock Lesnar at Survivor Series 2002, Shawn Michaels winning the World Title on the same show, Sheamus dethroning John Cena at TLC, the title victories of David Arquette, Vince McMahon and Vince Russo, Jinder Mahal and JBL's rapid ascensions to the top, the Honky Tonk Man defeating Ricky Steamboat, the incident on The Main Event with Hogan and Andre, Edge cashing in Money in the Bank, the Summers Of Punk, and many many more. A really fun show this week, check it out and let us know what you think!





Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
http://amzn.to/2h93SxL
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