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Old 09-09-2014, 10:12 AM   #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
It's wrong to hit another person unless it's absolutely necessary to defend yourself. That's pretty much the statement I'm making. Somehow, that = "Women bring it on themselves". And that kind of willing ignorance about what's actually being said in favor of jumping to "VICTIM BLAMING!" at the first mention that the woman may have done something wrong as well, much less something clearly illegal, is the problem.
'Defending yourself' sounds ridiculous in this situation after seeing the video. What did he have to defend? Does it honestly look like he was in danger? He outweighs her by like 100 pounds.

That's why you get dirty looks when you try to downplay his role in the situation. And you kind of deserve them.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:16 AM   #962
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I think what a lot of you guys are missing is his reaction to her hitting her head on the railing and falling unconscious. There was no remorse, panic, shame or anything. He moved like he was trying to hide a body.
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:18 AM   #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innovator View Post
I think what a lot of you guys are missing is his reaction to her hitting her head on the railing and falling unconscious. There was no remorse, panic, shame or anything. He moved like he was trying to hide a body.
That's the main thing that creeped me out about all of it. That was really more shocking than the actual physical hits to me. So cold and remorseless. Then when people came, he started acting like a concerned boyfriend. Pretty gross.
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Old 09-09-2014, 12:24 PM   #964
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Yeah and its not like he couldn't pick her up, the guy is a strong dude.
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Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
Is there an extended version of the video I haven't seen? I saw her flick her wrist at him when they were outside the elevator. Seemed like she may have grazed him or something. Not seeing her actually "hit" him.
Yeah I only saw this video too.
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Old 09-09-2014, 05:48 PM   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
'Defending yourself' sounds ridiculous in this situation after seeing the video. What did he have to defend? Does it honestly look like he was in danger? He outweighs her by like 100 pounds.

That's why you get dirty looks when you try to downplay his role in the situation. And you kind of deserve them.
You really need to try to comprehend things better. That's the entire problem here. Again, EVERYTHING that's said on the situation about her doing ANYTHING wrong is taken as "You're blaming the victim" no matter what and it's fucking silly how people are unwilling to read things logically. All I said was "It's wrong to hit another person unless it's absolutely necessary to defend yourself." and you got so eager to jump to "He's saying that Ray Rice was defending himself."

No... "It's wrong to hit another person unless it's absolutely necessary to defend yourself." As in if you're not defending yourself, you should not hit another person. As in she should not have hit him. She slapped him on the way to the elevator. Then she looks to elbow him in the chest or throat in the elevator.

I've seriously said multiple time in this thread already that Ray Rice was wrong for what he did. He crossed the line. He went overboard defending himself. But of course that's been ignored every time because saying that she did ANYTHING wrong = "You're blaming the victim" It's a fucked up way of preventing logical discussion.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:15 PM   #966
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It's just really odd what you took out of this entire situation, that's all.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:23 PM   #967
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It's pretty weird that your mind immediately goes to "what did she do wrong?" From what I saw, she grazed his arm/shoulder on the way to the elevator and then he beat the everliving shit out of her. I don't really know what your point is and I don't know why you are so insistent to point out what she did wrong in the situation. In the end, people will always come after the guy in these situations because of damage. He caused lots of damage. She did not. He almost killed her. She grazed his shoulder.

You can throw around "hitting" all you want like all hits are equal but they aren't. She could have died. He was in no danger. That's the main thing to remember.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:24 PM   #968
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I took the same thing about Ray Rice's actions that you took out of it. Literally the same exact thing.

I'm just adding that not taking female on male domestic violence seriously is an issue and the fact that NO ONE wants to say that a woman did anything wrong out of fear of being labeled as someone blaming the victim sends the message that women are allowed to physically attack men because of their sex. Like I said, if that same exact video existed but it was a man attacking a woman and the woman knocking him out, it would be a hilarious viral video with people praising the woman. That's a problem.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:35 PM   #969
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A woman of that size trying to do damage to Ray Rice is the equivalent of me trying to knock out a brown bear with a left hook.

I'll try it later tonight and I'll let you know how it goes.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:38 PM   #970
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And if you hit a brown bear with a left hook it would still be an act of violence and I'd say "Why did you just hit that brown bear, you fucking asshole?"
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:39 PM   #971
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And I'd assume any logical person would agree that that was something you should not have done even as they curse the brown bear for tearing you to pieces.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:39 PM   #972
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You're missing the point entirely.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:43 PM   #973
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It literally sounds like you're saying "Oh, a lady committing domestic violence isn't really that bad."

I think you're missing the point by still trying to argue about Ray Rice's role which I've already said over and over again we agree completely on.

That brown bear analogy you just gave was actually the perfect example of what I'm saying.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:45 PM   #974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
You really need to try to comprehend things better. That's the entire problem here. Again, EVERYTHING that's said on the situation about her doing ANYTHING wrong is taken as "You're blaming the victim" no matter what and it's fucking silly how people are unwilling to read things logically. All I said was "It's wrong to hit another person unless it's absolutely necessary to defend yourself." and you got so eager to jump to "He's saying that Ray Rice was defending himself."

No... "It's wrong to hit another person unless it's absolutely necessary to defend yourself." As in if you're not defending yourself, you should not hit another person. As in she should not have hit him. She slapped him on the way to the elevator. Then she looks to elbow him in the chest or throat in the elevator.

I've seriously said multiple time in this thread already that Ray Rice was wrong for what he did. He crossed the line. He went overboard defending himself. But of course that's been ignored every time because saying that she did ANYTHING wrong = "You're blaming the victim" It's a fucked up way of preventing logical discussion.
What does this have to do with anything? You keep on going on about "She was wrong too" as if you're making some kind of relevant point but everything you have written about this so far has been incredibly specious. I've noticed this in your posts before, where you try to fit everything into this very narrow and formulaic line of reasoning that you believe to be logic but in actuality is just the limits of your own understanding.

A female hitting a guy is not the same as a guy hitting a girl, don't be absurd. The fact that you're even trying to put the two on equal footing should be enough for you and Destor to want to take a step back and figure out where you took a wrong turn in your judgment. It's a double standard and there are exceptions like there are to anything, but this circumstance isn't one of them. Her swatting at him a couple of times doesn't constitute "literal domestic violence" either beyond the most trivial use of the term.

I'm not on a witchhunt against Ray Rice, I don't think he is the scum of the earth and and I don't care if he gets suspended or not since you would have to suspend half the league if you went after everyone who beat their wives. But don't present it as if there is a lot of ambiguity and "uncomfortable truths" involved here, because this is about as stark a case of female battery as you're ever going to see.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:51 PM   #975
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The problem is that the playing fields aren't equal. I could be hit by a woman that size 25 times before any damage would be done. Ray Rice could be hit by a woman that size 250 times before any damage would be done. It would take 1-2 haymakers from Ray Rice to kill a woman like that. To me it is about damage.

I get what you are saying in essence, but it doesn't have practical application in this situation. Yes, people shouldn't hit. I agree. But the differences between her hitting him and him hitting her are profound. In one situation somebody could die, in the other not much damage is done at all. You are right in principal, but not in reality.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:52 PM   #976
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DrA spot on, as per usual.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:05 PM   #977
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You're comparing what he did to what she did. I'm not. That's the difference. I see her slap him and then elbow him in the chest/neck area. Fuck what Ray Rice did for just a second. He was an asshole, he crossed the line and what he did was incredibly wrong. We aren't in disagreement about that. Once you say "people shouldn't hit", that should pretty much be the end of it. Male on female domestic violence existing, regardless of how much more likely it is to cause serious damage, does not mean female on male domestic violence is no big deal. What she did... slapping him and then elbowing him in the chest DOES constitute "literal domestic violence". It's violence. "Don't fucking hit another human being. Your gender doesn't give you any special privileges to be violent." That's it. That's the point. And it needs to be made clear without people being shamed into not saying it for fear of being a victim blamer.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:13 PM   #978
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You're a really weird guy. Yes. Hitting is bad. That is established. But him hitting her could KILL HER. One results in hurt feelings the other results in POTENTIAL DEATH. They aren't equal acts.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:15 PM   #979
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Holy shit, I've said a couple times now that I'm not comparing them and a shitload more times that I'm not defending what he did. I feel like I've repeated that enough and you go right back to it anyway. You're way too intent on ignoring that part. If you can't stop doing that, there's really no possible way to discuss anything with you.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:22 PM   #980
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But you're saying that in context to this situation and then are getting mad at me for applying that logic to the same situation. Nobody should hit anybody but one is far more damaging than the other. You're also kind of exaggerating her role in this. From what I saw, she pawed at him lightly outside of the elevator. Unless there is a cut of the video I'm not seeing, she had a pretty minor role in what happened.

You are commenting on the situation and are backing away from it at the same time.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:32 PM   #981
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No I'm commenting on what SHE did. Backing away would be ignoring his role, which I'm not doing. You're preaching to the choir when you keep trying to tell me how much more wrong he is and how he did an awful thing. It's pointless.

At this point, it comes down to what you saw in the video. I see her slap him ("pawed him lightly" kinda just seems like a cute term to downplay it. It's clearly a slap.) and then elbow him in the chest or neck in the elevator. It's hard to see exactly where because of the angle but her arm raised quickly and she made a violent action. If you're not seeing that, then we're just gonna be in disagreement. If you do see that... then she was violent and it was wrong. Him being more violent does not exonerate her and acting like it does sends the message that female on male violence is fine because male on female violence is generally worse which is just... an insane, horrifying theory.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:38 PM   #982
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So how about those Cowboys?
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:39 PM   #983
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I would honestly rather talk about the Cowboys than keep going over this at this point. lol
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:39 PM   #984
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They're a mess.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:39 PM   #985
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Welp, that's that. Back to domestic violence.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:40 PM   #986
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Romo looked awful. Hope they can rebound this week. Really think the division is still theirs to lose. Just need to beat PHI both weeks they play them and I believe in their offense more than PHI's.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:40 PM   #987
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I posted the stuff about Jerry Jones in the casual thread but it'll be interesting to see how harsh a slap on the wrist he gets. Suspending him for the year would probably be a blessing to him as awful as the Cowboys are and $500,000 fine is just $500,000 less he'll have to pay strippers with.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:43 PM   #988
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Quote:
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Romo looked awful. Hope they can rebound this week. Really think the division is still theirs to lose. Just need to beat PHI both weeks they play them and I believe in their offense more than PHI's.
Romo has his games. It was far from all him though. Falling behind by 7 a minute in because Murray fumbled doesn't exactly set the tone for greatness.

I honestly do think Jason Garrett is the worst coach in the league though so 8-8 for three seasons is actually an accomplishment.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:46 PM   #989
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Rice could have easily put her in a bear hug to get her to stop, not knock her ass out.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:47 PM   #990
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Female on male violence isn't fine. But male on female violence is far worse (especially in this situation given size/strength/weight disparity) because of the amount of potential damage that could stem from it. It isn't alright but she isn't going to kill him by slapping him. You are looking at this from a standpoint of principal. I am looking at from a standpoint of reality/severity. There are levels of violence. The law recognizes levels of violence. This would likely fall under "excessive force." If my girlfriend gets angry at me and slaps me, that does not give me the right to beat her within an inch of her life. If my girlfriend slaps me, I have a sore face. If I punch my girlfriend with full force, she is going to the hospital.

Both not okay. But one is far more severe than the other. One might kill someone and the other one means a red cheek for 30 minutes.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:56 PM   #991
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I know, Narc. I know. Just trust me. We're not really in all that much of a disagreement here. We both wish for no murder AND no red cheeks.
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Old 09-09-2014, 07:58 PM   #992
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Quote:
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Rice could have easily put her in a bear hug to get her to stop, not knock her ass out.
"Ray Rice uses wrestling maneuver to subdue girlfriend" doesn't sound any better. Plus they can drag the WWE through the mud since its known he's a wrestling fan. Surprised they didn't make that connection anyway.
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Old 09-09-2014, 09:33 PM   #993
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"Ray Rice uses wrestling maneuver to subdue girlfriend" doesn't sound any better.
Sounds like a perfect non-lethal way to stop her. I'm not saying rag doll her, just to control her arms so she stops hitting you.
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:14 PM   #994
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Shut the fuck up and talk football.

Fuck Ray Rice and what he did. Talk about the game not his fucking stupidity.
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Old 09-09-2014, 11:47 PM   #995
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Ben roethlisberger praying for Ray Rice

He should be praying he doesn't fuck up again since he already has the first strike on him for the rape accusations.
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:41 AM   #996
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The difference with Roethlisberger though, is I don't believe any of those charges stuck? My memory is fuzzy on all that, I could be mistaken
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Old 09-10-2014, 12:43 AM   #997
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Quote:
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Shut the fuck up and talk football.

Fuck Ray Rice and what he did. Talk about the game not his fucking stupidity.
Nobody is stopping you from making any other football-related posts. Have at 'er, knock us dead with your tremendous insight into the Tampa-2 or whatever you deem is more post-worthy than a rather significant social issue that is currently happening within the NFL.
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Old 09-10-2014, 04:31 AM   #998
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Quote:
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I think what a lot of you guys are missing is his reaction to her hitting her head on the railing and falling unconscious. There was no remorse, panic, shame or anything. He moved like he was trying to hide a body.
I dont think anyone is trying to defend his actions.
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Old 09-10-2014, 07:40 AM   #999
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un-athletic low-life rejects get away with rape, beating women etc etc NFL doesen't do shit about it unless video's like the Ray Rice one where there obligated to do it. It's just not right
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Old 09-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #1000
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Yep, fan is victim blaming and too obtuse to realize that he is victim blaming.
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