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Old 07-18-2017, 08:11 AM   #281
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Meh. Best way to get a new talent over is by putting him with Angle assuming they stop making Angle out to be some square in a suit.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:45 AM   #282
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He was born in 1988... Kurt probably hooked up with Ebony from GLOW.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:24 AM   #283
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WELFARE QUEEN IS THE MOTHER!!!
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #284
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This illegitimate son thing is retarded, I actually cringed "irl." After Summerslam I am cancelling my network. If it was an actual truth and real life I would be ok wih it. But stuff like this is why being a wwe fan is embarrassing. This isn't as bad as Vince being the Higher Power but it is close.
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Old 07-18-2017, 12:36 PM   #285
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If it was an actual truth and real life I would be ok wih it.
95% of entertainment features made up stories. Have fun watching only documentaries.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:48 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by #BrotherVito DELETED View Post
95% of entertainment features made up stories. Have fun watching only documentaries.
Its still stupid tho lol
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:01 PM   #287
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they need to bring back Jackie as the mom
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:21 PM   #288
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Well, it DOES explain that storyline with Sharmelle...
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:21 PM   #289
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Word.
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Old 07-18-2017, 02:46 PM   #290
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Reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:34 PM   #291
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Poit is a zombie. The only way to stop him is to give him head. I mean cut off his head.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:45 PM   #292
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Which one?
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:05 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #BROKEN Hasney View Post
Sharmell "molested" him too.
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Originally Posted by erickman View Post
they need to bring back Jackie as the mom
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Originally Posted by Volare View Post
Word.
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Originally Posted by Vastardikai View Post
Well, it DOES explain that storyline with Sharmelle...
I forgot about the Sharmell thing. Haha.

Any excuse for Jacqueline... even though I can never get over thinking of a) Mavin winking at her, and b) "SHE JEFF JARRETT('s) HOE!!!" from New Jack. "You ever notice whereever Jeff Jarrett went, Jackie went, too?!"

On topic: Alicia Fox needs to stop fucking around with Noam Dar and ACH... oops, I mean Cedric Alexander ["...in the event of a ' that was racist' chant, you can suck my dick!"] and take her tall, crazy, fine ass to the waiting arms of an Olympic hero.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:52 AM   #294
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Holy shit, they actually made Jason Jordan Kurt Angle's son?!? Hahahaha! I can't even put into words my thoughts on this. I'll give it a shot.

It's dumb, but it's dumb in this way that the Attitude era wasn't even dumb. It's dumb in a half-assed "eat up this shit" sort of way. Not offensively dumb, like some of the stuff that TNA and WWE do regularly do to insult your intelligence, but just this real soft-serving of "we really don't give a fuck."

Anyone can do a Google search and work out this shit isn't real. I don't know how people are expecting to bite onto this. Give this time and distance, and this will be more WCW's Giant being the son of Andre than Taker & Kane or Edge & Christian being brothers. There was some mystique behind the Kane stuff, and there's that supernatural element there that was embedded by the time the internet really took off in the same way. When you debut playing brothers, it's just one of them rasslin' things. Whatever. It's the attempt at soap opera and emotion that is really cringy about this.

That they saddled Kurt Angle with some much zany shit is part of the reason he was never the draw he could have been, and now they are going to do the same to Jason Jordan. What is the end goal of this? To get Jordan booed based on nepotism? How does it make him a babyface? Who is this angle even for?

It's not for most of RAW's audience -- that older demographic who got hooked during the 80's or 90's and still watches because deep down they love wrestling. They know enough about it to not have any sort of emotional response to this sort of bullshit. The casuals aren't going to be moved by this, surely, because it's the sort of thing that feels exploitative and overly fake, so they're not going to want to be taken in by it. This seems like more booking for the children, who the WWE think are universally dumb, to make them go to school and say "Whoa, Jason Jordan is Kurt Angle's son! That must mean he's a great wrestler too!" except then cooler kids will say "Shut up, that shit isn't real, you're dumb." Then they will look it up, like kids can do now, see that it's not and not bother.

I just don't get what the goal is. It seems...weak. Like they're attempting to shock people into feeling something, but they don't really know how to even do that anymore.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:55 AM   #295
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Ugh, I feel stupid talking about it. Like, it doesn't even piss me off, and it doesn't really motivate mt to analyze it.

When I saw a screenshot of Jason Jordan's Wikipedia page being changed to say he was Kurt Angle's son, I thought it was a joke. But it's real, and it's somehow still not completely funny or not completely sad. I don't really care, and that's the worst thing, because now they are trying to do stuff and it's not got people caring, and when you're loud and no one cares, that's when everybody notices they don't care.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:58 AM   #296
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it's just more proof of how much they hate their fan base.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:23 AM   #297
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:56 AM   #298
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Quote:
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it's just more proof of how much they hate their fan base.
Yeah, I really do think that it does betray a general contempt for the people who are still loyal to their content.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:34 AM   #299
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You just know that this isn't even going to lead to a real push for Jordan..... he's going to get so far, and then be viscously beaten down by a heel (maybe Triple H) and then daddy Kurt Angle will come out of retirement to wrestle and fight Jason Jordan's battle for him and vanquish the heel that Jason Jordan couldn't because everyone from the old era is better than everybody from the current era.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:47 AM   #300
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Pretty much. If Jordan gets a win it'll be flukey as fuck. Mind you, if he gets a monster push he'll get booed out of the building, because he's not ready. All in all, they are idiots.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:51 AM   #301
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If Kurt fights HHH I think I am going to take another hiatus.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:53 AM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
You just know that this isn't even going to lead to a real push for Jordan..... he's going to get so far, and then be viscously beaten down by a heel (maybe Triple H) and then daddy Kurt Angle will come out of retirement to wrestle and fight Jason Jordan's battle for him and vanquish the heel that Jason Jordan couldn't because everyone from the old era is better than everybody from the current era.
This is true though
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:23 PM   #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
This is true though
It has the distinction of being both objectively true and self-fulfilment.

It's hard to top the perfect storm of top-tier talent in the prime swing of the Attitude Era, but they generally fail to position newer stars, then panic and trot out the old timers who we remember fondly and continue to make them world beaters.

Good example is back then, the feud with LoD put over NAO as a legit team. Fast forward to The Ascension, and it looked like Outlawz jobbing to them was going to be a passing of the torch, but then they got jumped by all these other old teams with no reciept coupled by the constant burial from the announce desk. They could have been made, and instead were made to look like chumps. They bragged about being better than older teams, but we're teally booked to back that up. Yeah, Konnor and Victor likely weren't going to set the world on fire in being one of the greatest teams in history, but having them lose a fight to retirees and turn tail killed any momentum or mystique. Why would I want to see them now? Like Steve Austin said of Mark Mero after that Sable powerbomb "Who the hell am I fighting now?" Nobody wants to see Ascension if they can easily get laid out by a guy who only knows one word and an announcer who used to tag once long ago.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:32 PM   #304
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Not going to touch your Ascention point because it's valid. They were booked poorly...but here's the thing: The Ascention ( WHO I LOVE) are not stars. At all. And there are nearly none in the industry today. It's not that WWF is failing to make new ones. It's that none exist. They're fighting to make guys who arent stars feel like stars and frankly no one could do better with the crop they have.


The territories died and with it we lost the tools that trained good workers. Now we have a corperate system that is trying to manufacture them and it just isnt going to work. I think it's a death spiral honestly...we'll see how the next decade goes.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:09 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Holy shit, they actually made Jason Jordan Kurt Angle's son?!? Hahahaha! I can't even put into words my thoughts on this. I'll give it a shot.

It's dumb, but it's dumb in this way that the Attitude era wasn't even dumb. It's dumb in a half-assed "eat up this shit" sort of way. Not offensively dumb, like some of the stuff that TNA and WWE do regularly do to insult your intelligence, but just this real soft-serving of "we really don't give a fuck."

Anyone can do a Google search and work out this shit isn't real. I don't know how people are expecting to bite onto this. Give this time and distance, and this will be more WCW's Giant being the son of Andre than Taker & Kane or Edge & Christian being brothers. There was some mystique behind the Kane stuff, and there's that supernatural element there that was embedded by the time the internet really took off in the same way. When you debut playing brothers, it's just one of them rasslin' things. Whatever. It's the attempt at soap opera and emotion that is really cringy about this.

That they saddled Kurt Angle with some much zany shit is part of the reason he was never the draw he could have been, and now they are going to do the same to Jason Jordan. What is the end goal of this? To get Jordan booed based on nepotism? How does it make him a babyface? Who is this angle even for?

It's not for most of RAW's audience -- that older demographic who got hooked during the 80's or 90's and still watches because deep down they love wrestling. They know enough about it to not have any sort of emotional response to this sort of bullshit. The casuals aren't going to be moved by this, surely, because it's the sort of thing that feels exploitative and overly fake, so they're not going to want to be taken in by it. This seems like more booking for the children, who the WWE think are universally dumb, to make them go to school and say "Whoa, Jason Jordan is Kurt Angle's son! That must mean he's a great wrestler too!" except then cooler kids will say "Shut up, that shit isn't real, you're dumb." Then they will look it up, like kids can do now, see that it's not and not bother.

I just don't get what the goal is. It seems...weak. Like they're attempting to shock people into feeling something, but they don't really know how to even do that anymore.
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Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
it's just more proof of how much they hate their fan base.
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You just know that this isn't even going to lead to a real push for Jordan..... he's going to get so far, and then be viscously beaten down by a heel (maybe Triple H) and then daddy Kurt Angle will come out of retirement to wrestle and fight Jason Jordan's battle for him and vanquish the heel that Jason Jordan couldn't because everyone from the old era is better than everybody from the current era.
In 90 days, no one will care. This is the philosophy behind the curtain.

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Not going to touch your Ascention point because it's valid. They were booked poorly...but here's the thing: The Ascention ( WHO I LOVE) are not stars. At all. And there are nearly none in the industry today. It's not that WWF is failing to make new ones. It's that none exist. They're fighting to make guys who arent stars feel like stars and frankly no one could do better with the crop they have.


The territories died and with it we lost the tools that trained good workers. Now we have a corperate system that is trying to manufacture them and it just isnt going to work. I think it's a death spiral honestly...we'll see how the next decade goes.
I wonder how much the wrestlers are just "wrestling" (showing up to do the physical part onlyand which ones are actually given freedom to develop their own personality.

For example, in today's world of scripted promos, Stone Cold would have never existed or come to fruition, I don't think. For fucks sake, their idea for him was "The Ringmaster" That's about as generic as it can get.

I would like to see them take a chance on more stars and let them do what they do. Gallows & Anderson are a good example. They both have great charisma and could "shine" more than they do currently. Not saying they are the next LOD, NAO etc. but they could be better.

I dunno, I don't watch regularly, so my input is probably sub-par at best. These are just some of the biggest differences I can see which appear to be contributing factors to the state of the current product.
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:06 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Not going to touch your Ascention point because it's valid. They were booked poorly...but here's the thing: The Ascention ( WHO I LOVE) are not stars. At all. And there are nearly none in the industry today. It's not that WWF is failing to make new ones. It's that none exist. They're fighting to make guys who arent stars feel like stars and frankly no one could do better with the crop they have.


The territories died and with it we lost the tools that trained good workers. Now we have a corperate system that is trying to manufacture them and it just isnt going to work. I think it's a death spiral honestly...we'll see how the next decade goes.
I don't entirely agree with you. It isn't that WWE doesn't have potential stars, it's that they are poor at ascertaining who the true diamonds are. Remember when Cena and Orton were an "experiment"? They saw little value in two guys who they would shit themselves if they lost today. Rocky had a rocket up his ass before he was ready. Austin, in his own words, was a "utility worker". He wasn't seen as what he would become, and if origional plans were followed, we likely would never find out.

Eva Marie was so much worse than a debuting Trish Stratus (no rose glasses; she sucked at first) and Kelly Kelly combined, and in spite of EVERY OTHER WOMAN on the roster at the time being objectively better no matter how green they were, they were dead set on pushing her until the backlash and/or mounting evidence of potential injuries was too much to ignore. Daniel Bryan was over as fuck, and they still nearly passed on that. Don't need to argue about Zack Ryder again. They let Cody Rhodes go. AJ Styles seemed to be brought in begrudgingly. Do you really think Jinder would be getting this push if they weren't looking at this foreign market strategy heavily right now? He was there for years, released, and brought back. Hell, Braun Strowman ticks all the boxes of every goddamn thing Vince wants except for maybe a luxurious mane, and they're STILL dead set on Roman being Cena Lite even seemingly at Brawn's expense.

They have people who have talents we possibly haven't seen yet or possibly ever because we don't get to see it. Rusev on social media is a charm and a treasure, and I say that as someone who isn't exactly one of his banner wavers. Rusev on TV is a fucking boring and generic foreign heel done ad nauseum. It shouldn't have taken Talking Smack to inject life into people that they can't seem to do in actual allotted television time. It shouldn't take someone *having* to take to social media because writers can't seem to concentrate on more than one angle at a time. We could have a whole treasure trove of top talent being wasted, and we are none the wiser.
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Old 07-20-2017, 05:16 PM   #307
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You pulled everything I wanted to say right outta my mind. Everything there is exactly the problem(s).
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:49 PM   #308
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Its not the bookers job to get you over. You get yourself over. The bookers job is to utilize over talent.

Danielson was a failure of the booking. He was over and they tried to stop it. But if you're jerking the curtains its for one of two reasons. 1. You didnt get your ass over. 2. The talent is stacked and you didnt get yourself over enough.... maybe 3. You shit in the wrong guys cheerios.

Like people getting passed over for promotion. You gotta take ownership of that. You gotta impress your boss not the otherway around.

If the booker is having to get you over you should take it as a failure on your part. Its what they pay you to do.
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:57 PM   #309
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10min of tv cost the WWE $45k. Theres a real investment there everytime you go out there. Blaming the office is a joke.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:16 AM   #310
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Goddammit, I wrote a very verbose response, and it got lost for being "logged out".
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:32 AM   #311
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Rollins proved to be amazing and over. They then took away his amazing laugh and made him into Reigns light. Go figure.
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Old 07-21-2017, 01:48 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Its not the bookers job to get you over. You get yourself over. The bookers job is to utilize over talent.

Danielson was a failure of the booking. He was over and they tried to stop it. But if you're jerking the curtains its for one of two reasons. 1. You didnt get your ass over. 2. The talent is stacked and you didnt get yourself over enough.... maybe 3. You shit in the wrong guys cheerios.

Like people getting passed over for promotion. You gotta take ownership of that. You gotta impress your boss not the otherway around.

If the booker is having to get you over you should take it as a failure on your part. Its what they pay you to do.
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10min of tv cost the WWE $45k. Theres a real investment there everytime you go out there. Blaming the office is a joke.
Let me try this again with what I can remember writing:

Monday on RAW, Samoa Joe cut a fantastic promo that positions him as a threat to Brock. Now, Joe could've shit the bed and blew his chance. That would've been on him. My poibt is that what if they never had Joe go out there? He gets beat clean by Brock, killed by an F5, and doesn't have the opportunity to prop himself up the next night. Roman and Heyman/Brock shit on Joe, and they set themselves up for Reigns vs Lesnar... again. How would Joe being diminished here have been his fault?

Remember when Lesnar debuted? You think he would've become the attraction he is today if he was booked the same way Curtis Axel was? Brock comes in, double powerbombs people for 2-3 weeks, then constantly jobs clean, becomes Heyman's meatshield, and made to look like a buffoon? He would've been dead inside of two months no matter how he looks. Would that have been Brock's fault he didn't get over?

Back to Austin 3:16. If the Curtain Call never happened, he never would have won that tournament. If they didn't have allotted time for a coronation (along with the other moving parts like Austin being upset about something Jake supposedly said beforehand), the promo wouldn't have been dropped. No promo, no signs and groundswell. But ultimately, if Vince still saw no value in him outside of being "a good hand", he would have gone on to become yet another midcard-at-best nobody that people would only kinda remember as one half of the Hollywood Blondes. Not seeing how any of that would be Austin's fault for not getting himself over.

How can one seize the moment when they arent given moments to seize? Who cares about how much is spent on tv time? Part of what that time was *supposed* to be for is helping more people get on tv. You can't say nobody is a draw when there are barely opportunities to make new people be perceived as a draw. The company cannot be rotally absolved of this issue in spite of you thinking that is "a joke".

Being passed over for promotion isn't always a simple issue of impressing your boss or not... bosses make mistakes on who they do or don't promote. You could be the most compotent writer, filer, and whatever on your job, but you get passed over because your boss likes how Jane looks in a miniskirt. Has nothing to do with how skilled you potentially are, and you never get the chance to prove it. How is that your fault for not "stepping up"?
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Old 07-21-2017, 09:53 AM   #313
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Good talent would still get over. If all those moments never happend another moment would have and we'd be talking abnout them. Cream rises to the top. Always. If you're good poeple will want to see you. No one gave Danielson anything. he went out and got so fucking over that the pushed him. This is what good talent is. Thats the definition. If you cant do exactly that then you arent good talent you're a lip stick-pig.


If im not getting over in a town then I need to evaluate what I'm selling them. Winning and losing dont get me over. Especially not in 2017. I get me over.


These guys are given moments to sieze ad nauseum but the moments never come. And they never will. You cite the KotR promo but it basically proves my point. How many 7 min promos are guys given? Dozens? Hundreds? Fuck in this day in age you can put the world title on a guy, build 30 min of TV a week of him and still comes out a midcarder. Thats a failure of the talent. Austin winning KotR didnt make the promo any better, he looked at his opponent and spoke from the characfters heart. Could have been any night really. Austin had found a voice that resonated with the audience. He made himself a star and made sure we knew. That's talent.


Did anyone try and make Mic Foley one of the top acts on the planet? No one but Mick did thats for damn sure. History is litered with these stories. Now everyone wants to act like its someone elses job to make this better when the blame is soley on the talent.


How many monster pushes went nowhere? More than paid off thats for damn sure. Because the booking is a SMALL part of what gets you over. You get over FIRST, then you get a push. Thats where the success is.


10min of TV. $45,000. Thats a huge investment.
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:32 AM   #314
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You cite the KotR promo but it basically proves my point. How many 7 min promos are guys given? Dozens? Hundreds? Fuck in this day in age you can put the world title on a guy, build 30 min of TV a week of him and still comes out a midcarder. Thats a failure of the talent. Austin winning KotR didnt make the promo any better, he looked at his opponent and spoke from the characfters heart. Could have been any night really. Austin had found a voice that resonated with the audience. He made himself a star and made sure we knew. That's talent.
That would make sense if all the guys were allowed to "speak from their characters heart" still instead of having their promos scripted. Getting over today is more reliant on the writers than ever before and the writers are worse than ever before.
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:34 AM   #315
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I'll give that the prmos handed to them are poo.
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Old 07-21-2017, 10:34 AM   #316
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But obviously going off script doesnt get your fired soooooo...
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:01 AM   #317
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Pretty sure going off script would get a lot of these guys fired.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:06 AM   #318
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Though I agree with what you're saying Destor. Guys back in the day made themselves stars... I just don't know if they have the environment to make themselves star now. Everything about the WWE's presentation is inorganic. Listen to the fucking commentary. Back in those days, as BAD as it could get, whether it was the production, or Vince not being SO focused on marketing and stocks... the product felt more intimate and less homogenized. A guy could cut the most amazing promo these days, but then Michael Cole would be like "I WONDER WHAT THE BIG DOG ROMAN REIGNS WHO ISN'T A BAD GUY, ISN'T A GOOD GUY, BUT IS THE GUY, WOULD THINK OF THIS... NEVERMIND THE #WWEUNIVERSE" (not even specifically shitting on Cole or Roman, insert any commentator with any corporately manufactured nickname, it's just how the product is) so the promo wouldn't even matter.
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:29 AM   #319
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I hear but now we're shifting the focus onto the commentators. At what point do we own our own successes and failures? A great lay by play can def aid or hinder the process but he doesnt make you
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Old 07-21-2017, 11:30 AM   #320
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I think it's the entire product. I see a lot of very talented guys with lots of experience, floundering.
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