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Old 11-01-2014, 01:14 PM   #361
Inadequacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
That is not my stance, I'm sorry if it seemed that way. I don't think people should like it, but stopping the world over it is overblown. There are degrees.



I understand how doxxing is very threatening, but consider the difference between Quinn being doxxed and Nero having a syringe sent to his house. One person used the issue to spread her name around and ignored proper channels to deal with that, the other person took it seriously and refused to publicize it.

One side is making this a game, and it's the side who law enforcement deemed safe. Brianna Wu left her home of her own volition.



Contact the FBI, do not publicize it, and definitely don't use it as a reason to spread political agendas.
Kalyx I've had to read countless articles about women being threatened on the internet and exactly how ineffective/uncaring the authorities can be about it. I live in a province where a young girls suicide due to online bullying/harassment led to the formation of a new police unit specifically for dealing with online harassment. A unit which did basically nothing when a local woman tried to report the harassment she was receiving from her ex-boyfriend. They wouldn't even do anything when she knew who the person was, can you imagine the authorities doing very much when the harassers are anonymous?

I guess my point is it's incredibly stupid to say there is a "proper" way to deal with these things and maybe just a little bit ridiculous to suggest that way is going through the police. Maybe publicizing these things and getting the support of the general public to shame the people who would do these IS a reasonable thing to do.

Here's the article from my local alt-weekly, there are hundreds more just like it from other cities.

http://www.thecoast.ca/halifax/the-a...nt?oid=4425956
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Old 11-01-2014, 01:25 PM   #362
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I think Kalyx is more concerned with the third part of his final sentence than the actual safety and well-being of the victims.
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Old 11-01-2014, 02:35 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
Yeah I always take the side of a pussy who won't show his face when he is saying something and talks via a computer voice.

Not.
Fair enough.

Would you like that footage clean without commentary?
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Old 11-01-2014, 02:38 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by road doggy dogg View Post
I think Kalyx is more concerned with the third part of his final sentence than the actual safety and well-being of the victims.
I don't want anybody hurt, and people need to be able to say what I said without fear of somebody saying they don't care. I spent several pages of this thread condemning threats, harassment, and doxxing. Obviously I'm not fine with these things.
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Old 11-01-2014, 04:19 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inadequacy View Post
I live in a province where a young girls suicide due to online bullying/harassment led to the formation of a new police unit specifically for dealing with online harassment. A unit which did basically nothing when a local woman tried to report the harassment she was receiving from her ex-boyfriend. They wouldn't even do anything when she knew who the person was, can you imagine the authorities doing very much when the harassers are anonymous?
Online harassment is a tricky thing to nail down. Many social sites continually patch in systems for users to control their privacy and it doesn't seem to stop a creep from pulling shit. It's a new-ish area for law enforcement to work in and I sympathize that what they do and what a service does is very complicated. It goes to a larger issue and we have to wonder what would we have services and law enforcement do about this?

I had this thought that one day everybody; law enforcement, service users, sites, people of all religions and political creeds will finally agree on what I've been saying during this GG stuff that the ultimate issue are trolls and their anonymity. That's what it all comes down to. We're either gonna see expanded powers to the justice department regarding IP addresses and the such, or the end of internet anonymity altogether. At this point I'm fine with either, since how it's working now doesn't seem to satisfy people.
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Old 11-01-2014, 04:36 PM   #366
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Are you really fine with the end of internet anonymity?
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Old 11-02-2014, 10:56 AM   #367
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I have a question. Does Gamergate hate women because having sex without rape is just a lost cause for all of you?
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:32 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
I have a question. Does Gamergate hate women because having sex without rape is just a lost cause for all of you?
Follow up question: Do you feel like you'd have a better understanding of women if you took games less seriously?
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Old 11-02-2014, 12:05 PM   #369
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I got busy with work & other stuff and wandered away. I get back, and this thread is 10 pages long. This... is going to take a while.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:45 PM   #370
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Kalyx wins this thread.
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Old 11-02-2014, 06:59 PM   #371
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By Queensbury rules yes. He certainly embedded the most links, and he made many modest proposals rationally and without using dirty words. He gets the debating club gold star. By he I mean they, sorry.
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:31 PM   #372
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No, people asked questions, he calmly explained the answers. Then those people proceeded to promptly ignore everything he said in favor of making uninformed arguments.

Kalyx clearly is the victor here. He even made TheRogerer freak out and I thought that was something only I could do.
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Old 11-02-2014, 11:38 PM   #373
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I also love the part where people try to pass themselves off as the "authority" on Anonymous.

I leave you with this:
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Old 11-03-2014, 12:31 AM   #374
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#CatGate: The Search for Ethics in Cat Journalism

Thursday, Oct 30, 2014 by A True Cat Fan





It wasn't long ago that cat appreciation was reserved solely for True Cat Fans. Yet, in the past few years, Deformed Cat Advocates-or DFAs-have imposed their will on the cat enthusiast community, and their agenda is clear: Only images of cats with adorable birth defects will do. Superimpose "cute" sayings in Impact font if you must, but let's not ignore the able-bodied cats that got us to where we are today. Remember Socks? The mid-to-late nineties almost feel like they were decades ago.


Just yesterday, an irritating co-worker of mine-let's call her "Denise," though her name is actually "Sherri"-posted an image of this "Grumpy Cat" character to my Facebook wall, which included the text "I'm only in a bad mood on every day that ends in a Y." Well, I wasn't about to let this Fake Cat Lover off the hook. I immediately grabbed one of the many copies of my Morris scrapbook-of course you know him as the famous 9 Lives mascot-and headed over to Denise's desk to give her a piece of my mind. Really, what right did she have to even dabble in cat enthusiasm? Did she spend hours meticulously clipping images of Morris out of Redbooks stolen from the library? Did she meet Morris in person at the ribbon-cutting of a drive-thru oil change in 1987? Was she one of the five people permitted to make a death mask upon Morris' passing in 1993?


I shouldn't have to tell you the answers to these questions. Unfortunately, this little altercation ended with a mandatory visit to our HR rep, who just happened to be Denise, so I didn't have to go far. She said I should take my lunch break early to go "cool off," so I did exactly that, and grabbed the latest issue of Cat Fancy from my desk on the way out. Unfortunately, this did nothing to quell my sour mood. I immediately flipped to the reviews section, because I must be a glutton for punishment. Before me sat the least objective analyses of cat-focused products my poor eyes had ever seen. In his evaluation of Friskies Party Mix Crunch Original Cat Treats, this "Steve Anderson" person had the gall to say, and I quote, "My little guy didn't want any more after a few servings, but obviously, results may vary with your particular cat."





Um, excuse me? Steve, you may want to reach out to the Cracker Jack company about the state of your degree, because really-is this what passes for cat journalism these days? Let's keep these personal biases out of product evaluations. I'll have you know I've raised six generations of cats on Friskies, and, outside of the kidney disorders the Friskies hotline assured me were common for most kittens, they've never steered me wrong. I can't even imagine the damage you've done to the Friskies brand with your one-sided, agenda-driven hooey. Is Mr. Anderson just a puppet of the Fancy Feast company, whose nameless white cat mascot is just a shameless imitation of the timeless Morris? I haven't been given any convincing reasons to believe this wasn't a shameful breach of ethics that will forever taint Cat Fancy in my eyes. But what I saw next was simply beyond belief. I had to push aside half of my Carl's Jr. bacon ranch fries for the sheer stomach discomfort this issue's feature story inflicted upon me. On page 87, underneath that familiar malformed face sat the words "An Evening With Lil' Bub." I assure you, those fast-food employees must have cursed their minimum wage salaries for all of the vomit they had to clean up that day.


I couldn't believe it. The DFA had gotten to the once-credible institute known as Cat Fancy. I had no choice but to investigate. I turned to one of our IT guys, and after agreeing to take the fall if anyone found out about his underground pornography ring, he did a little e-mail hacking of a certain Beth A. Goodman, who you all surely know as the editor-in-chief of Cat Fancy magazine-and the results were damning. Turns out, months earlier, the owner of Lil' Bub reached out to the publication, stating, "Going to be in the Irvine area Wednesday for a photo shoot-would love to check out the Cat Fancy offices!" To which Ms. Goodman replied, "Sure, that'd be great!" Collusion! My weak stomach ejected the remaining contents of my lunch into my cubicle. Though this would be a half-day for me, it was a Pyrrhic victory at best.


True Cat Fans, I implore you. This injustice will not stand. We must fight fire with fire, and that means a coordinated e-mail campaign and boycott of all Cat Fancy advertisers. By all means, do not harass Beth A. Goodman at her home on 2234 Elkridge Court in Irvine, California-and especially not when she gets home from work at 6:34pm (give or take). Do not send threatening messages to her children, Zach and Ira Goodman, who are in 6th and 8th grade (respectively) at Ronald Reagan Middle School at 436 Birch Street. And certainly you should not poison her dog, who eats out of a red bowl located roughly 15 feet from the garage door, behind the gardenia bush. Our voices will be heard. #CatGate will be our cause. And if there are any lawyers out there, I need to know the difference between manslaughter and the various degrees of murder. For a friend.


A True Cat Fan
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:16 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTS View Post
No, people asked questions, he calmly explained the answers. Then those people proceeded to promptly ignore everything he said in favor of making uninformed arguments.

Kalyx clearly is the victor here. He even made TheRogerer freak out and I thought that was something only I could do.
No matter how calmly a person explains their insanity it doesnt make them sound any less crazy. and this is bennie baby hoarders level crazy.

and thats pretty much my entire take on Gamergate too. too many toys to have real problems.
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Old 11-03-2014, 05:28 AM   #376
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Well if DTTS has one thing in his favour then he's proving that there's no such thing as objectivity and everything depends on subjective interpretation. Which is a bit of a blow to #gamergate's post-hoc manifesto, but why let reality get in the way of a debate.

I am going to go and hysterically blub in the corner, and I will miss Kalyx winning the DTTS award for good posting.
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Old 11-03-2014, 11:18 AM   #377
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Yo DTTS; that article RoXer pasted - that's gaslighting.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:30 PM   #378
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It can't be, TheRogerer didn't freak out about it and refuse to watch the video.
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Old 11-03-2014, 10:27 PM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
No matter how calmly a person explains their insanity it doesnt make them sound any less crazy. and this is bennie baby hoarders level crazy.

and thats pretty much my entire take on Gamergate too. too many toys to have real problems.
I kind of feel this way about game journalists trying to make the case that all gamers are secretly raping babies or whatever nonsense they came up with. A while back TOR.com published a screed about how scifi books shouldn't focus on characters with binary gender.

Aside from being asinine, it was also a case where the blog poster had no clue what she was talking about. The scifi genre has no shortage of weird sexuality.

That the social justice warriors would be so prominent in game media isn't surprising, nor is it surprising that they're just as out of the loop and dishonest as they are in every other part of the culture they inhabit.

What is so crazy about Kalyx's stances on game journalism exactly? Other than absolutely nothing I mean.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:51 AM   #380
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The call of gamergate has been for objectivity in coverage and reviews which is absolutely backwards. A subjective review is much more helpful because it is honest about the inherent preferences, balances and impressions. I would like to see a game review that is properly objective while being readable and informative.

The call for objectivity is mostly based in the fact that these subjective reviews have opinions that the audience don't agree with. This is only sometimes 'S.J.W.' issues, just as often it's been that someone has given a review score that does not match the status quo.

Also, it's not actually really games journalism, but enthusiast press.
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Old 11-04-2014, 06:40 PM   #381
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I would like to see a game review that is properly objective while being readable and informative.
http://www.tpwwforums.com/showthread.php?t=80659
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Old 11-04-2014, 08:59 PM   #382
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He thinks we were calling him CHT in our personal discussion. The fact that he was reading our discussion is beyond me though since he usually calls that sort of thing "stalking".
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Old 11-04-2014, 09:02 PM   #383
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Yeah I can't imagine what compelled him to 'dig' in either of our visitor messages. Boredom, I guess.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:48 PM   #384
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Maybe we should talk about George Zimmerman or something else we disagree on passionately, before we cause the universe to implode.
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:15 AM   #385
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Zimmerman will probably do something else to get put in jail. He just has a shitty personality and view on life. He is trash.

He will do something stupid like OJ did and he'll be back in jail.

I think justice was served in him being not-guilty but he has already proven that he is just waiting for the time to ruin his life again. Road Rage incident, visiting a gun manufacture and something about guns with his girlfriend involving police. He is living dangerously.
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:45 AM   #386
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Zimmerman is a lunatic. OJ was innocent.
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:49 AM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
Yeah I can't imagine what compelled him to 'dig' in either of our visitor messages. Boredom, I guess.
I stumbled into it while looking for something else. I'm sorry if I've created the impression that your conversation was in somehow worth reading or of interest to anyone. Why would a conversation about me attract my attention, indeed? Feel free to have it. The flow of the conversation meant that it appeared I was being referred to as CHT as your new conversation bleeds into the old one, and then my name appears out of nowhere. An innocent mistake, however you may understand the feeling that one is being referred to in code by a man who has a history of playing with you, arouses some curiosity.

Is your link to the Resident Evil 2 review a joke? I'm struggling to find significant objective thrusts in there, of course there are factual descriptions throughout. It's a decent review, it revels in your subjective experience, these things are connected.

I thought it would be best for Zimmerman if everyone stopped discussing him.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:12 AM   #388
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Looking for something else.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:33 AM   #389
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A list of threads created by you
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:51 AM   #390
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I don't think visitor messages are searchable in any field.
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Old 11-05-2014, 09:54 AM   #391
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If we must have this out, I went to DTTS's profile to view the 'View threads created by DTTS' link. Right below that I saw a verbose visitor message from you, which you can click to view the whole conversation in isolation. I'm not opposed to you having it, I imagine having a quasi-public discussion gives the same thrill as alleyway sex. And you're both quite entitled since I've had a go at both of you. I've even bent my own code of conduct a little in referring to you a couple of times in non related discussions, which was silly but not really disproprotionate in the whole scheme of things.
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:18 AM   #392
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All of these discussion forum posters are seriously freaking me out. WHY NOW
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Old 11-05-2014, 11:23 AM   #393
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Old 11-05-2014, 12:28 PM   #394
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Quote:
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That is not an objective review. This is not meant as a criticism, it's just me pointing out the difficulty of having a truly objective game review system. There are a couple of things here, such as you describing Ada Wong as "sexy and secretive" (I don't think this is problematic or offensive or sexist or anything like that, though I do find pretty much all attempts by games to be sexy or to introduce sexuality to be juvenile and embarrassing) rather than, say, describing Leon as "sexy". You also talk about the storyline working "for you" which is an overt acknowledgement that this is your own opinion, though you don't go into detail on this, presumably for reasons of plot spoiling. Thematically, the storyline may not work for others.

Now, straining to be objective isn't necessarily helpful because some people (myself included) like to hear about interesting or problematic themes in story-telling, be it in film, TV or games. As I've said, I listen to one particular film critic for this very reason as I know he'll point out narrative themes that bother him in the same way they bother me. If games are to "grow up" as a form of entertainment, then these criticisms of narrative in games have to be made. Arguing that it is a hindrance to artistic freedom is a red herring: no one has to change in response to criticism, but they have to decide whether the criticism is voluble or accurate enough to look at their own methods. More refined criticism leads to greater innovation in games and story-telling. As the consumer, it's also your prerogative to value the opinions of certain critics (journalists, reviewers).
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Old 11-05-2014, 05:48 PM   #395
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:00 PM   #396
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Grown ups are talking, be quiet.
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:03 PM   #397
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take your faggotry else-ware.
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:15 PM   #398
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Rogerer was right that I posted that old review as something of a gag, but I did wanna point out that reviews absent of political slants are possible. It's the entirety of classic EGM's reviews, for instance.

When you say games are growing up and thus new kinds of criticism are required, I kinda call bullshit on that. Games have been criticized well enough for years and has they evolved toward realism or alternative goals, so to did commentary change with them.

Now I'm not saying you can't make a review that expresses your political rhetoric, but you have to remember these games aren't made to promote any political or social commentary. Judging them as such makes a monkey out of you.

If you wanted to review a Tom Clancy game through the lens of political rhetoric that makes perfect sense. Even the Metal Gear games for all their military fantasy. I can see that. But it's unfair viewing a game through political lens when the creators didn't venture out for that kind of thing. It's a major missing the point as well as painting a developer/publisher in a corner they never prepared for. And I don't think they should start preparing for them.

In my review I highlighted Ada as sexy and secretive, tropes of the Femme Fatale archetype. It is exactly the words you use to describe that kind of character. A women would write the same thing if she wanted to highlight her and the trope. The developers were very aware of the character type as well. It makes sense to mention that. I won't call Leon sexy not because I'm not gay - but because his character traits weren't made with that in mind. He was young and in over his head when he debuted in the series. That's not sexy at all. That's not any archetypes that include 'sexy'.

Do you understand what I'm saying?
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Old 11-05-2014, 06:52 PM   #399
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There's only nothing political in your review because a)the game is blockbuster/b-movie cinema referential and b)it doesn't say anything to your personal beliefs. If it did have something to say, or cause a reaction in you I would expect you to talk about that and not deny it.

I don't know why a reviewer should attempt to write towards an approximation of the mainstream audience because that's dishonest, and that person doesn't exist. I think it's a sign of your biases that you think military storylines and games warrant discussion, but other things don't. Many people have many things to say, different values, and different things that matter to them. We all have biases. Your opinion is also understandable and not irregular, but not absolute by any means.

Why shouldn't a player, a reviewer, challenge the artist with something they didn't intend? Are artists supposed to be omniscent? What about the Death of the Author? What about all the unintended consequence of art? They are intrinsic to creative works. Why should the reviewer surpress themselves, and lie? We're supposed to be chasing honesty here. If someone forms an opinion of the art as is, others may feel the same way, they should not lie about their experience. If they try to surpress and ignore it, they will likely fail anyway.

We have your personal perspectives and biases, and I've tried to highlight yours in that post. Where I think you've gone wrong is the easy and classical mistake that you take so much of your perspective for granted and then assume that to be the objective. You are as subjective as anyone else. I can read your review with an assessment of you, the things you're into, the things you've played, and that all forms part of my impression. Do not forget the most important part, we are all humans here.
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Old 11-05-2014, 07:01 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rogerer View Post
There's only nothing political in your review because a)the game is blockbuster/b-movie cinema referential and b)it doesn't say anything to your personal beliefs. If it did have something to say, or cause a reaction in you I would expect you to talk about that and not deny it.
Of course, but the bold portion of this post is literally what I just explained. That's a very important element about all this review stuff.

Quote:
I don't know why a reviewer should attempt to write towards an approximation of the mainstream audience because that's dishonest, and that person doesn't exist. I think it's a sign of your biases that you think military storylines and games warrant discussion, but other things don't.
I didn't mean military games specifically, but games that intentionally delve into political themes obviously warrant political discussion. Notice nobody took offense to the reviews of Spec Ops: The Line. Now why is that?

Quote:
Why shouldn't a player, a reviewer, challenge the artist with something they didn't intend?
Because it misses the intentional of the work, particularly in the realm of entertainment where if you want games that make commentary about a worldview you can find them. I would ask why would somebody look at Peach being kidnapped by a giant turtle dragon and posit questions of gender roles - when Myamoto only intended to find goal/motivations for players to experiment his platforming gameplay theory.

A player can challenge an artist on things outside of artists' intention; but I believe that's a conversation that can never lead anywhere, and hasn't led anywhere.

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Frankly, I think you sum it all up in your post. You have your personal perspectives and biases, and I've tried to highlight them. Where I think you've gone wrong is the easy and classical mistake that you take so much of your perspective for granted and then assume that to be the objective. You are as subjective as anyone else. I can read your review with an assessment of you, the things you're into, the things you've played, and that all forms part of my impression. Do not forget the most important part, we are all humans here.
k thx
Kalyx triaD is offline   Reply With Quote
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