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Old 05-17-2018, 01:36 PM   #361
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
Sexism and misogyny are always implied in these discussions.
Nice blanket statement there. I hope it's warm and snug and protects you from all the victimization. God knows that wouldn't be fair.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:39 PM   #362
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:
Who knows what's up? The #Woke crew?

If you want people to see things your way, you need to have uncomfortable conversations "that make you feel gross".

Last I checked, none of us have sexually assaulted a woman so we're all playing for the good guys. We are just having a real conversation.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:39 PM   #363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Nice blanket statement there. I hope it's warm and snug and protects you from all the victimization. God knows that wouldn't be fair.
what?
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:48 PM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
Look at it like this Noid.

With what we know about the accuser, we've used our intuition and critical thinking skills to say "ehhhh we don't buy it". The lack of evidence for a case only supports this feeling.

Honestly, this is just what we know. We weren't there. We'll likely never know what happened that night.

My main issue is this will stain Enzo's reputation. Given I believe with what has been presented to me that he didn't do it, I think that is awful.

And I'm aware crazy immature drug addicts get raped. In fact, given the lifestyle, probably more frequently than less at-risk people. Still doesn't make this specific lunatic credible. The story seemed to have holes in it from the beginning.
Okay, I'll hear that. I'm glad you used the word intuition, because I think it's mainly that. I disagree with the critical thinking you've done. I'm not saying that you haven't done it, I just disagree with the process. I think Occam's razor is pretty clear about what the most likely scenario in this is, for example (and it's messy at its tidiest).

I agree with your second statement. We weren't there, and we may not ever know.

That's fair enough. I don't give a shit about Enzo's reputation in this, honestly. Sorry to sound callous, but wasn't she like a drugged-up teenage girl? I can hear Destor saying "Still an adult" now, but surely there must be some more engaging pussy in the world. He's obviously got a touch of the Jerry Lawlers or what have you. I don't have to feel sorry for him putting himself in these situations. And, as I said, TNA has no problem hiring people with sexual assault accusations to their name. It won't make him unemployable or anything. And he lost his job for compounded reasons that are his responsibility. He has not been found guilty unjustly at this point in time.

My main concern is the backflips people will do to go after an alleged victim's credibility. It doesn't make me feel good. At all. I completely agree with you that they are more at risk, which is why statements like "some drugged up crazy" (paraphrasing from around the place) or whatever are just...what? Why would you even go down that road? You could describe Enzo the same way, lol.

Real life often has holes in it. Stories don't always add up 100% when dealing with messes like this. And I hope we can agree that this is a fucking mess. I'd probably not like to associate with anyone in this story. That doesn't mean Enzo deserves to go to prison if he's innocent, and that doesn't mean that this girl is a liar because she's got issues.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:52 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
Who knows what's up? The #Woke crew?

If you want people to see things your way, you need to have uncomfortable conversations "that make you feel gross".

Last I checked, none of us have sexually assaulted a woman so we're all playing for the good guys. We are just having a real conversation.
Not wanting to talk about one thing at a particular point in time is not the same thing as avoiding all uncomfortable conversations though, lol. It's not the duty of everyone all the time to do it about everything.

Would it be inappropriate to make a mike adamle joke in response to your last point? I kid, mike.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:10 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
... You literally asked if I would defend a woman in this situation. I said I would regardless of the sex. Now you're questioning why I would specify that it has nothing to do with the person's sex.

You can't be serious.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:14 PM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
This is seriously an exchange that just happened. What the shit.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:17 PM   #368
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Toddster getting in some offence.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:19 PM   #369
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Look, I get that Noid feels "weird" about having the conversation and would rather not continue or whatever. That's cool. Whatever. I am gonna need clarification on that exchange though because that was a fucking bizarre response.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:22 PM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
This is seriously an exchange that just happened. What the shit.
I said:

I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up?

To clarify, I'm talking about false allegations, not rape allegations. I could have been more clear by saying "on charges of filing a false report." I thought that was inherent in "that she was actually making it up?"
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:30 PM   #371
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I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:30 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:

* It is true that women rarely report false sexual assault claims. There is nothing outlandish about this claim. If it makes you uncomfortable, seek help.

* Enzo was accused of sexual assault. It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.

* Enzo was released from the WWE because of the compounded issue of the allegations, his disclosure of them, his attitude in general, and probably his lack of talent. See Heath Slater for someone who was accused of sexual harassment/assault, handled it correctly, and still has a job today. This is not a violation of Enzo's right to due process.

* Upon investigaton, it was discovered that there was not enough evidence to charge Enzo. This does not mean he did it, nor that he didn't do it. It means what it suggests -- that there is not enough evidence to charge Enzo. As a result, due to the legal process, Enzo is a free man until more evidence can be uncovered, if it exists at all, if a crime was committed at all.

* Rape allegations should still be taken very seriously, considering the fact that they are not usually fabricated. Men and women with substance abuse problems can be assaulted too, and their past shouldn't dismiss their credibility. A healthy amount of skepticism can be taken whilst still investigating. People in these situations can be preyed upon and can lie about all the circumstances surrounding an event and the core incident can still be true.
The statistics of other rape cases have nothing to do with this rape case.

"Sorry Mr. Amore even though there isn't evidence against you in this rape case, It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. We will still continue to consider you a rapist"
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:31 PM   #373
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If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.

Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #374
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"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"

"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"

"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"

That's how it came off in my mind.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:33 PM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I think skepticism is disproportionately applied in these situations. If you can say you would honestly apply it, good for you. But it was about the standard for evidence, not the subject's sex/gender. That's why I find "it would have nothing to do with sex" (paraphrasing) odd when the answer could have just been "sure." You placed emphasis in a place I didn't expect you to.
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:34 PM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If a woman came up on charges and people were using ridiculous reasoning that has nothing to do with the case then yes, I would defend her. Doesn't change anything.

Also, when you ask "I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation", you're implying sexism. Don't wait for someone else to flat out say it and then act like THEY were the ones bringing sexism into the equation just because they actually used the word first. lol
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:34 PM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
"Would you help that old lady cross the road?"

"I'm not doing it because she's a lady!"

"Umm...okay? Are you going to help her though?"

That's how it came off in my mind.
lol It was more like

"Would you help that old man cross the road?"

"Yeah"

"What about if it's an old woman?"

"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."

"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:35 PM   #378
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Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias

Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:36 PM   #379
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Look no further than Emmitt Till to understand false rape accusations. Just because it was a race issue as well doesn't mean shit. It's something that can be weaponized given the connotations of being accused of rape.

And yeah. Enzo isn't exactly the most sympathetic of examples, which makes this discussion all the more poignant.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:37 PM   #380
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Quote:
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Remember how everyone on TPWW defended Snuka when he wasn't convicted of murdering that women? #GenderBias

Oh wait you don't remember anyone on TPWW defending Snuka?
Only destor but that's cuz he's a due process hoss so I respect him stubbornly sticking to his guns.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:37 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
If it was about the standard of evidence and not the sex/gender then saying "I wonder what would happen if it was the opposite sex/genger..." is odd.
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:38 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I explained that the quote was unfinished and clarified. If you hang onto it, I'm going to assume it's because you have nothing else.
Your clarification didn't change anything.

If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:39 PM   #383
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Roberto Osuna, the closer of the Toronto Blue Jays has assault charges and a restraining order with a woman accuser. Nobody is defending him in this city. Believe me. With the details we know, it doesn't look good for him and it's very disappointing.

It is a case-by-case basis.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:40 PM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Okay, would you apply the same standard of evidence to the woman in this case should Enzo decide to counter-sue, for example? Or would you assume guilt because she lacks credibility? Rhetorical question. We both know what the answer should be, but it's something to ask yourself.
Yes. My basic standard of evidence doesn't change regardless of the accusation. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. Which is ridiculous. That's the whole point we've been trying to make.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:40 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
lol It was more like

"Would you help that old man cross the road?"

"Yeah"

"What about if it's an old woman?"

"Yeah. Doesn't matter what sex the old person is."

"... Why would you specify that? Odd."
I'm sorry for my part in leaving that as your interpretation. I hope me clarifying cleared things up for you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:41 PM   #386
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Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:42 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yes. My standard of evidence doesn't change. For anything. Yours changes if the accusation is rape specifically. That's the difference.
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.

How can people not get this?

* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:43 PM   #388
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Noid never liked Enzo.

I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:46 PM   #389
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The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:46 PM   #390
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Quote:
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Noid: "The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"
That's cute.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:47 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.
She has lied quite a bit.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:49 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio View Post
Noid never liked Enzo.

I'm sure if this story was about Danny Basham he would be defending him to the heavens.
Just want to state very clearly that joking or not, the implication that I want Enzo to be a rapist is fucking ludicrous, distasteful, and I have contempt for it. Thanks, you're out.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #393
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Quote:
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The whole thing sucks regardless of what happened. Hate hearing about stuff like this.
Yep. Agree with this.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:51 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Vic View Post
The statistics of other rape cases have nothing to do with this rape case.

"Sorry Mr. Amore even though there isn't evidence against you in this rape case, It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. We will still continue to consider you a rapist"
These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.

That was literally in the quote.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:52 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
No it doesn't. As I've said countless times, Enzo should not be convicted if the evidence isn't there. That doesn't mean that it's logical to suggest she is lying.

How can people not get this?

* Most sexual assault allegations aren't baseless and there is not enough evidence to convict aren't mutually exclusively ideas. They can both be true.
It's completely logical to suggest that a person who has a history of being unstable and lacking credibility might not be credible. It's not "She's definitely lying". It's "She's not credible, so take it with a grain of salt." But for you, simply because he was accused, it needs to be made very clear that he could have still done it because women don't usually lie about being raped. Which is really skeevy. And I still have a feeling if it was some guy universally loved, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place because no one would be desperate from now til the end of time to point out "Crazy chicks can get raped, too! Daniel Bryan still could have done it!"
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:55 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Your clarification didn't change anything.

If it's about a standard of evidence, I don't care about sex OR type of accusation. You seem to think WE'RE the ones treating it differently because it's a rape accusation which is just insane.
Actually, I specified in that post that I don't think Dale would treat it differently, and that I hoped you wouldn't. It's just something that is definitely observable out there. You've got your back up like I aimed that at you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:02 PM   #397
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Well sometimes I have to speak for Dale because he's getting soft at his age.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:02 PM   #398
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Latest Reputation Received
ThreadDatePosted ByComment
WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:54 PMNoidNot provable about the claim. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence though, right?
WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:50 PMNoidEw
WWE releases Enzo Amore05-17-2018 02:47 PMNoidI hate the religious stuff, so I'm just going to neg-rep that misattribution. Also, you are being a dick and trivializing it while many are trying to have a somewhat serious conversation.


What religious stuff?

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Old 05-17-2018, 03:04 PM   #399
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Oof. Neg repping. Clearly Noid hasn't gone soft at his age.
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:05 PM   #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
It's completely logical to suggest that a person who has a history of being unstable and lacking credibility might not be credible. It's not "She's definitely lying". It's "She's not credible, so take it with a grain of salt." But for you, simply because he was accused, it needs to be made very clear that he could have still done it because women don't usually lie about being raped. Which is really skeevy. And I still have a feeling if it was some guy universally loved, this conversation wouldn't have started in the first place because no one would be desperate from now til the end of time to point out "Crazy chicks can get raped, too! Daniel Bryan still could have done it!"
This is where we diverge big time. "Lacking credibility" is a conclusion you're working back from. Someone with a history of being unstable can still have credibility, even if there are times they are not credible. You don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater there -- it's a massive generalization.

We're in agreement that it doesn't mean "she's definitely lying," but where we diverge is where you say "take it with a grain of salt." THAT is skeevy. You can still take something seriously without throwing someone into prison for it automatically. I feel the need to stress that "crazy chicks can get raped too," because you have very strongly implied that if a woman is crazy her claim of rape lacks validity. I am sorry if I have misinterpreted you on that as you did me earlier, but I think that's even present in the "grain of salt" comment right there. Maybe I am placing too much weight on your specific choice of words there? I dunno, man. Dale could identify that women with substance abuse problems and a history of lies in the past could be more at risk. I don't see why it's such a problem for you.

And I said it to Savio, so I'll say it you: I resent the implication that I wouldn't take the same line with Daniel Bryan. I took the same line with Rich Swann, and I'll take the same line if it happens with someone else.
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