TPWW Forums  

Go Back   TPWW Forums > w r e s t l i n g > wrestling forum
Reload this Page Is there a small chance that Cena has done more harm than good?
Register Members List

Reply
Page 1 of 3 1 23
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2017, 04:11 PM   #1
Maluco
Reigning Tipsters Champ!
 
Maluco's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,087
Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Is there a small chance that Cena has done more harm than good?
I will start off knowing I will get flack for a thread like this, but keep in mind it is just for a discussion. After his US run, the internet's opinion of John Cena went through the roof, and everyone knows how hard he works and that he has been the face of a company for a decade. He is solid at most aspects of the business and charismatic.

That argument has to be counterbalanced though and as well as being the face of a company in creative decline for a decade, he was forcibly pushed through fan backlash for many, many years to become firmly cemented as THE man. He had years of mind numbing a and boring feuds and matches. He wasn't chosen by fans like a Stone Cold, or even a Daniel Bryan. He was placed on top by sheer force of will. The fact that he was hardworking and talented has meant he has stayed there. But I certainly wouldn't hold him in as high a regard as guys like Hogan and Stone Cold. They were a different level in terms of popularity.

The reason, however, that I ask about the small chance of him hindering the business is his constant connections over the years to keeping others down.

Today I read a story that he decided that Baron Corbin was "not ready" for his push and that is why he isn't getting one. We heard the same about guys like Alex Riley and Ryback in the past, among others. There was the infamous story Jericho told about his literal burial of the Nexus and Wade Barrett (under chairs), then telling him and edge afterwards, "yeah, I probably shouldn't have done that". So ok, Alex Riley wasn't going to jumpstart a new era, but having a handful of established stars could have helped. A glass ceiling can be very subtle. It's easy to blame the talent for not getting over...but constant pushes and depushes will do that.

He has had a history of being on top for a decade now, and in that time, he has supposedly halted many a push and defeated many a wrestler. Rusev has bags of talent and never recovered from their feud...one more of many. Rusev has a presence, is great in the ring, can talk and is equally adept at comedy. He should be a main guy right now, but he is an afterthought potentially on the verge of release.

The fact that Cena ISN'T a Hogan or an Austin and doesn't do dambuster business, despite his obvious qualities, makes me believe that there could be an argument that he has done more damage than good to the business over his era.

We are kind to him today because he is no longer in our faces at every moment, but I just wonder how history will see John Cena, when the warts and all books start to reveal the man behind the persona.
Maluco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 04:14 PM   #2
Lock Jaw
Loque Ja
 
Lock Jaw's Avatar
 
Posts: 87,860
Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Lock Jaw makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
No, Cena hasn't done a lot of damage. The booking and writing has handled that part.
Lock Jaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 04:17 PM   #3
Rammsteinmad
TPWW's #3 Peep
 
Rammsteinmad's Avatar
 
Posts: 20,891
Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Rammsteinmad makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
At this point in time, it's all moot. Cena could put a guy over clean ten pay-per-views in a row, and he'd still be the top guy. The business has changed from Hogan's (and even Austin's) era, where beating someone doesn't establish them or give them any kind of rub.

Working with a guy like Cena could give someone some main-event status, but if that can't be followed-up with consistent booking then it's meaningless. That's why Daniel Bryan was able to progress past Summerslam 2013 to become a huge star, while guys like Wyatt and Rusev struggled post-Cena. They clearly had long-term plans for Bryan, and a victory over Cena was a part of that development.
Rammsteinmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 05:00 PM   #4
Emperor Smeat
Former TPWW Royalty
 
Emperor Smeat's Avatar
 
Posts: 66,588
Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
No, Cena hasn't done a lot of damage. The booking and writing has handled that part.
This. Even with the couple cases of him playing a role in the booking of someone, its still Creative who failed miserably with booking people after feuding with Cena.

Same for Creative letting Cena constantly brush off his opponents or trash their gimmicks in promos and rarely letting them respond back with a stinger or something savage in return.
Emperor Smeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 07:10 PM   #5
Destor
I am the cheese
 
Destor's Avatar
 
Posts: 51,009
Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Listen...song as old as time here...to have winners you must have losers...
Destor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 07:34 PM   #6
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
No.
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 08:19 PM   #7
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
No, Cena hasn't done a lot of damage. The booking and writing has handled that part.
Yep.

And also, fans chose Cena. He was monster over. He was champion for quite a while before the fans started getting a bad smell under their noses.
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 09:24 PM   #8
Blonde Moment
It's all Bullshit
 
Blonde Moment's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,910
Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Blonde Moment makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)

That is all
Blonde Moment is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:06 PM   #9
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Like, if John Cena thought Alex Riley would not cut it then so be it. I am 100% certain Hogan, Rock, HHH, Stone Cold, and every other legit maim evente4 has said, 'Naw, this guy does not have it to be legit' at some point.

A ton of Cena feuds were monsters being built up specifically for Cena to take down like Khali and Umaga. Umaga stayed afloat for awhile because he was entertaining but that was just extra gravy. There whole reason for being there was to lose to Cena though.
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:18 PM   #10
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Also, thank fucking god he put a halt on fucking Corbin. That guy blows. ALL PRAISE JOHN CENA.
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:22 PM   #11
Destor
I am the cheese
 
Destor's Avatar
 
Posts: 51,009
Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Destor makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
And people like corbin and russev hit an apex and they fed them to cena for fun and profit. Old school booking that will always work, build a monster up feed them to your top baby and shift them out of town. Course theyre a monopoly and there arent other towns but its still good business. Nothing new about it and its hardly a cena exclusive structure. Hogan and lawler benifited from it greatly.
Destor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:24 PM   #12
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
I think if guys like Galloway and Cody have shown us anything, it's that there are different places to go and make some scratch and tighten your craft.
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2017, 10:25 PM   #13
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
but it's the cream that really rises in those places IMO
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 12:39 AM   #14
Simple Fan
Let me talk to ya
 
Simple Fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 11,749
Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Simple Fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Cena has been great for the industry in a public perspective and isn't much different from the Hogan era or the Samartino era in my opinion, be it I wasn't alive for either. It's the time in between those eras where you have multiple stars emerging in the main event. After Hogan you got HBK, Bret Hart, Austin, HHH, The Rock and the Undertaker who ate all just as big of draws as Hogan would be today, if not more due to current events. Cena is on his way out no doubt and has no problem putting the right guy over as we've seen with guys like AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, and Bray Wyatt although WWE put Cena over in the end and if Cena says Corbin isn't ready I trust him.
Simple Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 05:14 AM   #15
Sting Fan
Blander Than Ever
 
Sting Fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,091
Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)Sting Fan has a relatively large amount of rep (50,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Also, thank fucking god he put a halt on fucking Corbin. That guy blows. ALL PRAISE JOHN CENA.
Amen!!!
Sting Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 07:43 PM   #16
DAMN iNATOR
Rigged from the start
 
DAMN iNATOR's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,417
DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Everyone's saying no now, but just wait until he gives Reigns the rub.
DAMN iNATOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 09:19 PM   #17
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Reigns is great. Same as Cena in that he's just booked horrifically
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2017, 10:42 PM   #18
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
I would not say Reigns is great. His promos and facial reactions are still only decent. He has superstar potential though no doubt.
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 02:12 AM   #19
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Cena is a fuckton more talented than Reigns.

Way more star quality, too.
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 02:49 AM   #20
Sepholio
3 Dicks Out For Trips
 
Sepholio's Avatar
 
Posts: 29,658
Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sepholio makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Reigns has the look. That's about all he has going for him.

If they had given him a bit more time to develop in ring and to work on his charisma/promo before shoving him down our throats he could have been so much more.
Sepholio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2017, 12:17 PM   #21
James Steele
TPWW's HHH Mark Since '04
 
James Steele's Avatar
 
Posts: 29,886
James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)James Steele makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Yep.

And also, fans chose Cena. He was monster over. He was champion for quite a while before the fans started getting a bad smell under their noses.
Incorrect. He won the title at WrestleMania 21 and was getting boo'd out of the building by SummerSlam 2005. So, as the true top babyface for the past 12 years, he's been a true babyface for 4-5 months.
James Steele is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 05:06 PM   #22
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Cena was not great by many metrics. Television ratings, PPV buys, etc. For a top babyface, he really didn't move the needle much, or however you want to express it. But they've invested so much into him now, and now he is actually great enough, that when they don't have him they are in much worse shape. It was a very co-dependent relationship that Cena is starting to outgrow.

I think the biggest credit to Cena is how the company sort of restructured around him. They shifted into a PG era, and have expanded to dip their hands into all these other different pots. If it pays off for them, Cena is likely going to be remembered as the guy that held the fort during those growing pains.

But I don't think you can argue against Cena being bad for immediate business when he was initially pushed.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 06:20 PM   #23
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Wrestling was on a decline in general. Wrestling peaked and has been on the decline since. You can't put that on Cena.
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 07:00 PM   #24
Emperor Smeat
Former TPWW Royalty
 
Emperor Smeat's Avatar
 
Posts: 66,588
Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Cena was not great by many metrics. Television ratings, PPV buys, etc. For a top babyface, he really didn't move the needle much, or however you want to express it. But they've invested so much into him now, and now he is actually great enough, that when they don't have him they are in much worse shape. It was a very co-dependent relationship that Cena is starting to outgrow.

I think the biggest credit to Cena is how the company sort of restructured around him. They shifted into a PG era, and have expanded to dip their hands into all these other different pots. If it pays off for them, Cena is likely going to be remembered as the guy that held the fort during those growing pains.
Biggest problem with Cena as a mega star was WWE failing miserably to take his base and mold it into the future base for the WWE. Kids love Cena but after a few years they leave en masse because they get bored of his booking and nothing else being as interesting because of WWE's neglect. His era being really long and Vince being very stubborn on building up future mega stars till recently is another reason for the lack of a future base.

Only reason it hasn't been catastrophic for the WWE is because they always had a constantly supply of kid fans to replace those that left during Cena's era.
Emperor Smeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 07:19 PM   #25
Ol Dirty Dastard
boop/bop/beep
 
Ol Dirty Dastard's Avatar
 
Posts: 38,427
Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ol Dirty Dastard makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Sorry Ruien and Figgy, Noid just has a deeper understanding than either of you. Time to get on his level.
Ol Dirty Dastard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 08:19 PM   #26
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 10:26 PM   #27
Swiss Ultimate
Amazon Affiliate
 
Swiss Ultimate's Avatar
 
Posts: 42,694
Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
No, Cena hasn't done a lot of damage. The booking and writing has handled that part.
Correct.
Swiss Ultimate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 10:30 PM   #28
Swiss Ultimate
Amazon Affiliate
 
Swiss Ultimate's Avatar
 
Posts: 42,694
Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Swiss Ultimate makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken Wheel View Post

That is all
Yup.
Swiss Ultimate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2017, 10:42 PM   #29
DAMN iNATOR
Rigged from the start
 
DAMN iNATOR's Avatar
 
Posts: 35,417
DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)DAMN iNATOR makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Cena was not great by many metrics. Television ratings, PPV buys, etc. For a top babyface, he really didn't move the needle much, or however you want to express it. But they've invested so much into him now, and now he is actually great enough, that when they don't have him they are in much worse shape. It was a very co-dependent relationship that Cena is starting to outgrow.

I think the biggest credit to Cena is how the company sort of restructured around him. They shifted into a PG era, and have expanded to dip their hands into all these other different pots. If it pays off for them, Cena is likely going to be remembered as the guy that held the fort during those growing pains.

But I don't think you can argue against Cena being bad for immediate business when he was initially pushed.
The move to PG wasn't all Cena...it was Benoit, plus Linda running for U.S. Senate as well.
DAMN iNATOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 03:14 AM   #30
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Wrestling was on a decline in general. Wrestling peaked and has been on the decline since. You can't put that on Cena.
Yeah, but wrestling was on a decline until Steve Austin got hot too. You just can't really argue against things not going great according to those metrics under Cena. He never spiked anything like that. For a guy in that position, he's been the least sensational. I'm not saying "Cena sucks" or anything like that. I'm not saying that he's the only factor either. I just don't know how you can look at Cena's run and say "Oh, that did everything ideal." It didn't. And that's not the end of the world, it's just what it is.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 03:15 AM   #31
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
The move to PG wasn't all Cena...it was Benoit, plus Linda running for U.S. Senate as well.
They weren't anchors on WWE programming though. Cena has been the top star of the PG era -- there's no real debate about that.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 03:16 AM   #32
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Biggest problem with Cena as a mega star was WWE failing miserably to take his base and mold it into the future base for the WWE. Kids love Cena but after a few years they leave en masse because they get bored of his booking and nothing else being as interesting because of WWE's neglect. His era being really long and Vince being very stubborn on building up future mega stars till recently is another reason for the lack of a future base.

Only reason it hasn't been catastrophic for the WWE is because they always had a constantly supply of kid fans to replace those that left during Cena's era.
I agree with this, by and large. I'm not sure how much the WWE has truly replenished its ranks though. Most of the people watching have probably been watching since the Attitude era, to be honest.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 05:28 AM   #33
#1-norm-fan
Resident drug enabler
 
#1-norm-fan's Avatar
 
Posts: 45,473
#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)#1-norm-fan makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
They weren't anchors on WWE programming though. Cena has been the top star of the PG era -- there's no real debate about that.
The PG move wasn't WWE restructuring around him though. They restructured him to fit what they wanted to be. WWE's failures over the past decade are because of the direction they've gone in as a company. The fact that Cena happens to be the top guy in the "We bought out our competition and no longer feel the need to try" era is unfortunate but there's nothing he could have done about it. If you just look at him as a talent, he's a fucking megastar in any era.
#1-norm-fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 05:55 AM   #34
Sixx
LUV CABBAGE/H8 JEWS
 
Sixx's Avatar
 
Posts: 42,497
Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Sixx makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Nah, not his fault. Cena helped if anything.
Sixx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 11:17 AM   #35
RaginRonic
Hellraiser Extraordinaire
 
RaginRonic's Avatar
 
Posts: 670
RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)RaginRonic is good (20,000+)
Though I've no problem with John's involvement in causes like Make-A-Wish, I also think that WWE shouldn'tve tried to cash in on that. They should've left it alone, and not used it to artifically attract the female and '13-and-under' fanbase.

That group should've latched onto John naturally, and created more of a slower build for his popularity, so it'd not end up feeling forced.

In terms of the ringwork end of things, John, at the end of matches, should've been doing something like sucking wind more after match wins...make it look like more of a struggle than it was. Him coming out of those matches like nothing happened was a gross error in judgment by those who booked him, and to me, made John look weak in victory. Like I said, him sucking wind a lot more would've forged him stronger in the creative sense....think of the phrase 'he smells like smoke cause he's been through fire', like what JBL has said on commentary from time to time.

Maybe having John revisit the babyface elements of the 'Doctor Of Thuganomics' character could take the heat off him for a while...at least 18 months.

Just some ideas. =P
RaginRonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 05:35 PM   #36
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
The PG move wasn't WWE restructuring around him though. They restructured him to fit what they wanted to be. WWE's failures over the past decade are because of the direction they've gone in as a company. The fact that Cena happens to be the top guy in the "We bought out our competition and no longer feel the need to try" era is unfortunate but there's nothing he could have done about it. If you just look at him as a talent, he's a fucking megastar in any era.
You're right that they didn't restructure and he was just the guy, but a lot of other guys couldn't do it, and none of them did. Cena was just that stable table. I meant that more of a positive than a negative. I mean, I don't like them going PG, but Cena navigated those waters about as well as anybody could have.

When it comes to the ratings and such, I do think those are larger problems with the WWE, but regardless, I don't think you can attribute hypothetical success in that category to Cena. Would he have been hotter if he were allowed to be edgy and grow into his own at a more steady rate? I absolutely think so, but it just didn't happen, so we won't know.

My argument isn't so much against John Cena in terms of him as an actual talent, as it is just how effective he was in that role of top guy. I certainly wouldn't give the WWE's hands a wash on the subject.
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2017, 07:00 PM   #37
Emperor Smeat
Former TPWW Royalty
 
Emperor Smeat's Avatar
 
Posts: 66,588
Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Emperor Smeat makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I agree with this, by and large. I'm not sure how much the WWE has truly replenished its ranks though. Most of the people watching have probably been watching since the Attitude era, to be honest.
They replenished it mainly from female viewers due to Total Divas and NXT making women's wrestling meaningful in the WWE. Problem is they are very violate for weekly support but WWE needs them for big weekly increases to happen. Its a big reason why Bayley was hyped up as the female Cena since she had mega star potential to make them into a very reliable weekly group for the WWE

Forgot where I read and saw the chart but with Cena's demo of kids, they start to become almost non-existent in the teen years and start quitting being wrestling fans in general.
Emperor Smeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 09:40 AM   #38
Mr. Nerfect
 
Posts: 60,919
Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Mr. Nerfect makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. Has Bayley been successful in that role so far?
Mr. Nerfect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 02:43 PM   #39
Maluco
Reigning Tipsters Champ!
 
Maluco's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,087
Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)Maluco got the bus to Rep Town and repped it up real bad at the rep shop (100,000+)
Some good discussion here and good points, but posting a video of some Cena fans who bought into his whole message, doesn't win me over that he was a big enough star to carry a whole era.

It also has nothing to do with him as a backstage personality or presence in the company. He might do an awful lot of PR good, but has he ever made another guy? What star has he pushed to the next level?

He isn't a big enough star just to eat guys at the top of the card like Hogan did. Hogan can get off with saying a lot of guys aren't ready, but even he eventually ended up hurting the business.

My question is, Cena's star never shone as bright as a Hogan or Austin. If he has backstage pull, has he done damage?
Maluco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2017, 05:21 PM   #40
Ruien
MVP Mark
 
Posts: 16,447
Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)Ruien makes a lot of good posts (200,000+)
My response, your an idiot. Everyone posted a ton of information you are glossing over.
Ruien is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 3 1 23

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:01 AM.

Forums Home - TPWW - Archive - Top

Powered by vBulletin®