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Old 01-14-2017, 11:31 AM   #31561
Blonde Moment
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droford View Post
I'm trying to figure out why people care what Cornette thinks about wrestling in the year 2017. Stuff from 25+ years ago..sure..He's naturally gonna hate 99% of the current product for 1 reason or another.
Judging by the TV ratings of the current era he is not the only one out there with a dislike for the current product, That aside, he is a hoot to listen to and some of his observations are not that far of base. There's something missing from the current product and I think that with the gradual addition of jobbers there has to be some belief in the company that something old is needed as well.

Aas for Okada/Omega ..... Yes there was a story going into the match, but now that i think about it I feel that the story would have been better served being told by wrestling and not by "spots". It's like the difference between making love and just fucking. What we saw was alot of fucking.
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Old 01-14-2017, 12:56 PM   #31562
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Those outside spots helped with the story the match was telling. Omega could have won the title with a count out earlier in the match but he wanted to pin Okada for the win. The table spot could have easily been a count out finish is exactly what they wanted you to think but the pride that both men had made them want to pin the other guy for the win. To end the match on the count out or not do the spots at all would not have told that story.
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Old 01-14-2017, 01:06 PM   #31563
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I could give a shit about Cornette, SMW was alright but mostly just rednecks rasslin in armory's. And I'm from his territory so I know.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:03 PM   #31564
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Another thing with Cornette's criticism is he contradicts himself. He complained about them doing moves no one could get up from and then also complains about selling to much. He also said a perfect match was exciting, drew money, got both guys over and showed no obvious cooperation. Now they hit the first three out of the park, crowd was hot for the match, New Japan World had a big and increase in subscriptions as well as a good live crowd, and both are more over now than be for the match. Cornette himself said they were crisp with their execution of the moves. In his words it was damn near a perfect match. Something else funny he said was the NJPW should fire them both for going into the announce and technical area. Like I said his hatred of Omega clouds his judgement of this match. He didn't watch it for what it was and wasn't interested in seeing the story they told in the ring so everything seemed like a spot to him.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #31565
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:25 PM   #31566
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Kings Court is back on Smackdown this week. Hate how the quality of the show drops as we get to cross-brand PPVs.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:00 PM   #31567
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Kind of odd Srrowman isn't on the original poster but R-Truth made it on and hasn't even announced himself as being in the Rumble.
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Old 01-14-2017, 04:52 PM   #31568
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You can't have a rumble without R-Truth. It's known.
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Old 01-14-2017, 05:00 PM   #31569
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I could actually see Golden Truth not being in the Rumble. They've already announced 13 entrants, I assume they'll have between 3-5 mystery entrants, and there are loads of other people I think will be in ahead of Golden Truth on the totem pole (Rusev, Big Cass, all 3 Wyatts, etc.)

Big Show, Kane, and Mark Henry feel more like "can't have a Rumble without these guys" picks. Because giants always are the favorites in Royal Rumbles of course.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:06 PM   #31570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
No, I'm not. In saying that when Cornette talks he does so in a way that favors 80s rasslin as if it was the right way to do things. I'm sure he likes modern stuff. I'm not saying he doesn't. What I'm saying is he has a clear bias when all but one of the matches he considers 5 stars were in the 80s. It's obvious he favors the era and that his wrestling.
Fair enough. I just wanted to get your point clear. To be fair, the matches that he lists as five stars happened in the 80's because that's when they happened. I mean, can you think of too many North American matches that were five stars that are not those glaring examples (HBK/Taker and Bret/Austin) in the 90's? It wasn't the era for that sort of stuff. It was a hot product and compelling in different ways, but I don't think Cornette is overlooking anything glaringly obvious.

I think you're right in that he thinks the pre-sports entertainment branding is an era that Cornette is nostalgic for. He'd admit as much himself. He frequently talks about how the business, in general, was a lot healthier back then before the hot-shotting of the Attitude era. He's kind of been proven right on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
The Interaction is fine. The shitting on him as a wrestler based on seeing him 10 years ago when he was apparently green as fuck and watching two comedy bits is ridiculous. Think about that. Cornette is holding onto an opinion that's a decade old with zero idea, seemingly, of how good an in ring performer the guy is.
I can get that people want to give Omega more chances because he was young and dumb and whatever. To keep it on Cornette, he does a wonderful little piece on whether or not it's actually the fault of the young guys today for thinking that the goofy shit is how to get themselves over. That being said, Cornette himself got into the business young and holds people who get into wrestling for a paycheck or to fuck around in general contempt. You can look down on how seriously he takes it, but in Corny's eyes, Omega committed a cardinal sin after dogging Delirious in ROH. Was he young and dumb? Sure. But the generational issues that a lot of the younger guys on the indy scene have where they think their way of handling stuff is automatically better seems to stick with them too. Has Omega ever said that was the wrong way to go about things? Has he given Corny a reason to update his opinion on him?

Hearing Omega's side of the stuff he did in Japan, it sounds like a lot of it went around him and he didn't plan for it to go viral and actually be filmed. I doubt some of that. A lot of it, actually. Given the legitimate risks of wrestling, working with a 9 year old girl shows a lot of the dude's arrogance and disregard for anyone but himself to be honest. He really sounds like a piece of shit. That's not to say the dude isn't a great wrestler now or grown as a person, but it's hard to sweep that stuff under a rug for some people, and I think that is fair enough.

It doesn't matter to Corny how good Omega is now. That's the bit people don't really seem to get. Weirdly enough, I think it is the bit that has the most credence. Times do change people and Omega probably is a lot better now and is a more decent human being. The Miz is also a better wrestler than he was when he started. But Corny isn't really as interested in that as he is Omega's personal decisions. Should he be more forgiving? Yeah, I could probably concede that, but I can't say he's wrong if he wants to take wrestling seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
He made 3 nice comments on a match even the guy he's doing the show with loved and admitted to getting into. Just because he tosses in a few compliments doesn't negate the other nonsense he's going on about, like the ultimate warrior comparison. He literally nit picked the whole thing. They over sold, they laid around a lot, it was just a match with moves, etc. Granted I'm sure he hasv zero idea of what's going on in the promotion. But that makes him look sillier as he's trying to critique something He has no idea of outside of it being a match.
I legitimately don't really get your point here, man. Did he compliment the match for its athleticism or not? I'm sorry he didn't give it an endless stream of positive adjectives? He mentioned Ultimate Warrior because Omega used to remind him of Warrior in certain ways. He also found him to be a jerk and reckless and ultimately shit for the wrestling business. Corny actually knows both guys, by the way. To say that you don't see the similarities is robbing him of his own anecdotal experiences.

He nit-picked it because analyzing the match was the point of the entire exercise? As for not understanding it outside the context of the match -- firstly, that is what he is analyzing -- the match. Most of the people gushing over it don't understand it outside the context of it being just a match. Do you really think everyone talking about how great it was is a subscriber to New Japan World? Come on now.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm struggling to find sense in your complaints here. He watched the match, said it wasn't that great and explained why. You don't have to like his opinion, but to say "Well, he was negative about the things he didn't like and he probably doesn't watch all of Omega's stuff" isn't really a good logical rebuke of it. Analyzing a match as he has is something people do all the time, and outside of its context is how most people have taken it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
I think expectations are higher. It takes more nowadays to suck people in. If expectations were low, you and I would be on the WWE bandwagon praising everything they do, much like CyNick. We don't. Because we expect better and when we don't get it we walk away.
This is a fair point. I would just disagree in the sense that I don't expect better, although I would like it. I'd like things to make sense, be simpler, set face/heel dynamics, and be organized in a way to make money. That's actually a very Cornette way of thinking, haha. I say I think expectations are lower because look at what passes as a star these days. Look at how short the rises to the top are. Look at how every match is the same and people still chant "This is awesome!" a few minutes before the match ends right on cue.

I think people want more, but I don't think their expectations are higher. I think they are just conditioned to accept mediocrity as excellence in this era. Goldberg provides a really good context for this. The dude comes out in 2016 and is INSTANTLY the biggest star they have, despite being 50 and, frankly, extremely limited in the ring. His promos carried more energy than almost anything else on the show. A Goldberg promo would wake people up. Think about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
This match had two year long stories meeting in a culmination of character growth and development. The fans were into it. You could tell with how they responded to the final 4 matches that the in ring performances enhanced stories that had been building up over time. It's part of what made them great for those who have followed NJPW enough to know what was going on.
This is a really good point. I'm sure there was a story there. I'm vaguely aware of Okada taking the reigns and now ruling NJPW and the rise of Kenny Omega. I'm not as compelled by the Omega story (it feels like he was pushed mainly in the absence of AJ Styles and Nakamura and that quite a few years of development were squeezed into one, but maybe the pacing was truly excellent). That being said, again, that is not really what Cornette is responding to. He's not saying that Omega isn't the top gaijin in Japan -- he's just saying that he doesn't fucking care for him and he's not as fucking good as everyone is raving about. Honestly, I'd agree with that.

But it worked in front of that audience. I don't think you can call the main event portion of the show a flop by any sense of the word. It got people on their feet and in the current climate that is what you want. It's just a shame that people are conditioned to mark out for Superkick Parties as opposed to switching their minds off and getting invested in good psychology. And that is why The Revival are an infinitely better team to me than The Young Bucks.

But yes, to the question "Did the match work?", the answer is clearly "Yes." That's pretty much it. But that doesn't mean that it was perfect or a five star classic or anything. Subjectively, I'm fine with people calling it a classic and I think just the emotion it stirs up in people is going to keep people going back to it even if it's not technically the best worked or most impressive physical contest in 2017.

This is an Academy Award nominee for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will win the award or that it's Citizen Kane. It still conforms to some terrible tropes of modern cinema. Loud noises and explosions in lieu of character development. It was another action blockbuster, but it is probably one of the very best action blockbusters in a long, long while. Hell, it might even be The Matrix of action blockbusters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
I think the basics of wrestling storytelling still works. How it is presented is way changes. What worked for Vince in the 80s didn't work in the 90s, and so on and so forth. I agree with the guys breaking their bodies for nobody, but that has more to do with the stories behind the matches, or lack thereof. I urge you to follow NJPW, Noid. I think we have similar tastes in wrestling. I love what they're producing. It has direction, long term booking, character development and great in ring matches. I think you'd love it.
I agree with this, but sometimes I wonder if things had to change so drastically. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the only way to do things. This is why I sometimes question the streak of The Undertaker. People will often point out to what a successful tool it has been in the modern evolution of WrestleMania, and it's a fair point, but sometimes I wonder if people get turned off by a dude who is in year 26 of his character's run still hanging around. I wonder which stars could have been created if focus wasn't on a winning streak of a guy that can no longer go full-time, and honestly was involved in a lot of dross and was never the #1 guy even when he was. That's not to disrespect the dedication and legendary status of The Undertaker, but rather just to point out that I don't think he needed the streak and that everything might have been generally healthier if it wasn't such a big priority (among other things).

The basics of wrestling still work, but that doesn't mean you need to go back to the days of an atomic drop as a finisher. To steer this back to Jim Cornette, one of the modern matches he praises is Seth Rollins vs. Davey Richards from ROH Border Wars. Now, I have not seen this match, but from what I have been told it had a lot of MMA influence. Pacing-wise, general story-wise, I can see that some people may not see the difference between it and Okada/Omega -- but what Cornette praises about it, in addition to the athleticism he praises in Omega/Okada -- is the lack of obvious cooperation. As I said though, I have not seen it. But my point there is that Corny isn't calling for a regression of wrestling -- and this is often the biggest straw-man thrown at him when he is labeled out of touch. He regularly says that the best wrestling promotion in the world is the UFC.

But I have been thoroughly considering getting into New Japan, because I want to support something that isn't WWE, and for the most part I find the main event stuff there fascinating. I didn't hate Okada/Omega. I am conditioned to accepting that as the modern style, dragon superplexes and all. But I don't find my views that dissimilar to Cornette's in that, no, I wouldn't give the match five stars, let alone six. I would go as high as four and a half, and I think that is perfectly wonderful praise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Him saying that's what people want to see is not accepting it. It's just acknowledging an obvious fact. Maybe he hasv accepted it but I'm not buying it based on how he presents his views on things.
There's a good bit Cornette does on wrestling being dead. It's worth a listen to. He talks about how you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. You don't need to tell Corny that kayfabe is dead. Oh, he knows. He's just making money off its corpse at this point. That being said, given that "everybody knows it is fake" and yet how many people think that wrestlers have always used fake blood, or how easy it is to work people (remember people thinking Bryan/Miz was real just recently), and how stirred up I see Joe Citizen get about a UFC fighter being cocky and wanting to go down to the pub to see him get his lights knocked out, I actually don't think I'd agree with him on that. Political analysts would have never expected Trump to become President. People are extremely easy to work these days.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:07 PM   #31571
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CORNETTE SHEEP,,,,,,,,,,,,
And damn proud.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:16 PM   #31572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Yes he did. He said that could've been a great finish, a count out finish, or a hospitalization angle or the finish, but then they went 20 more minutes. He was clearly suggesting that be the finish. It's pretty obvious.

Cornette, like anyone who's been in the business as long and has had the level of successes he's had, is wise and does have an endless amount of knowledge to listen to. It doesn't mean everything he says is going to resonate. Like obviously suggesting a table spot followed by count out or hospital angle to finish your main event match in the biggest show of the year.

On a different show? Absolutely. He's right. But this is more of the commenting on something he isn't actively aware of with context and story.
No, he didn't. He said those things in response to it happening. Once you've been shot ten times in a movie you should be dead; not that someone should be shot ten times in a movie. There seems to be this language barrier set up between Cornette and modern wrestling fans that I don't get, because the guy speaks pretty clear English.

If you're going to get dropped in your car from a forklift -- to use a familiar example -- that's an angle to explain your absence, injuries and further personal issues. That is what he is saying. In days when wrestling made sense, a spot like that (which Cornette praises for his its fluidity, by the way) would have been replayed and used as a way to generate money by getting people invested in the Omega comeback from injury. "Damn that Okada! He put Omega through the table on the biggest night of his life and now he's going to get back in the ring and avenge his fall...but I hope his neck is okay."

You go on to say that would work. I'm glad you agree with Cornette's point. He was not saying that Wrestle Kingdom 11, in particular, should have ended with a schmozz. He's just saying that if you BREAK YOUR NECK ON A FUCKING TABLE YOU SHOULD KIND OF BE DONE. If you do not want that to be the finish, don't do the fucking spot. That is what he is saying.

It would be like if Shawn Michaels kicked out of a Tombstone off the top rope through a flaming announce table surrounded by sharks at WrestleMania XXVI. "Man, that probably should have been the finish..." "But you can't have WrestleMania end in a shark fatality!".
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:20 PM   #31573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragile X View Post
I could give a shit about Cornette, SMW was alright but mostly just rednecks rasslin in armory's. And I'm from his territory so I know.
Love Cornette and enjoy watching SMW on YouTube, but I've seen some fan-cam footage that...well, it made me a bit uncomfortable.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:28 PM   #31574
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Originally Posted by Simple Fan View Post
Another thing with Cornette's criticism is he contradicts himself. He complained about them doing moves no one could get up from and then also complains about selling to much. He also said a perfect match was exciting, drew money, got both guys over and showed no obvious cooperation. Now they hit the first three out of the park, crowd was hot for the match, New Japan World had a big and increase in subscriptions as well as a good live crowd, and both are more over now than be for the match. Cornette himself said they were crisp with their execution of the moves. In his words it was damn near a perfect match. Something else funny he said was the NJPW should fire them both for going into the announce and technical area. Like I said his hatred of Omega clouds his judgement of this match. He didn't watch it for what it was and wasn't interested in seeing the story they told in the ring so everything seemed like a spot to him.
Doing moves no one could get up from and "selling too much" are not actually in contradiction to each other, and you can gather that from the context of what Cornette is saying, surely. One was a point about the excessive nature of the spots and the other was about the pacing of the match. Also, if the moves are moves you shouldn't get up from, and you get up at all, then it goes to follow that you aren't selling properly. This was fairly clearly Cornette's point. Lots of ill-timed lying around punctuated by big moves that should have involved more lying around.

The point about the perfect match isn't a contradiction either. Even if you accept the first three, as you put it (and New Japan World is actually under-performing, sadly, even though this did spike it), you're still left with the cooperation aspect. So it's not a perfect match. Cornette is responding to assertions that this was a 6-star match. That is better than perfect. Corny's just saying that the match wasn't perfect and here is why. Then he lists the perfectly valid reasons why. He didn't say it was fucking Tomko/Richards.

I actually didn't catch the bit about the technical stuff, lol. I was making a coffee or something. I'm going to go back and listen to that.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:36 PM   #31575
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He also said that the perfect wrestling match has never happened. The "obvious cooperation" will get every match every time. Every move has to have cooperation so the perfect match in that definition will never happen.

Boiling what he said to basics is that it wasn't the greatest match of all time which would be the only reason to give it six stars. Since the scale is supposed to only go to 4 like movie and tv reviews.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:41 PM   #31576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Fan View Post
Those outside spots helped with the story the match was telling. Omega could have won the title with a count out earlier in the match but he wanted to pin Okada for the win. The table spot could have easily been a count out finish is exactly what they wanted you to think but the pride that both men had made them want to pin the other guy for the win. To end the match on the count out or not do the spots at all would not have told that story.
You can win a title via count out in Japan?
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:42 PM   #31577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droford View Post
I'm trying to figure out why people care what Cornette thinks about wrestling in the year 2017. Stuff from 25+ years ago..sure..He's naturally gonna hate 99% of the current product for 1 reason or another.
The guy still has a lot to offer, and even if people don't like him because he doesn't like the stunts/ironic stuff they like in 2017, I just wish people would objectively realize that. The dude is still one of the best promos in the business if you listen to him shill one of his personal appearances. When he cuts loose on a Kenny King, for example, it is one of the most glorious things ever.

But most of all, just listen to him when he gets his hands on something he loves. I very strongly recommend looking up him praising The Revival (I might even post it myself). Holy shit, when he flies into a tear about all the things they did right, pointing out some things they could improve along the way, basically giving them an OVW instructional lesson for free, by freakin' osmosis you "get it."

Granted, Cornette didn't work directly with The Revival and they do have access to some of the best trainers wrestling has going at the moment -- you can't give him credit for them -- but I guarantee they heard what he said and took it on board. They are one of the most old school acts in WWE and they happened to have the best match of 2016 even by the WWE's standards.



He's useful. Very useful. He's probably not the only source you should use for your wrestling knowledge, and he'd be the first to admit that -- there's an entire library out there -- but there is a lot to pick up from him.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:42 PM   #31578
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Yes
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:43 PM   #31579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
He also said that the perfect wrestling match has never happened. The "obvious cooperation" will get every match every time. Every move has to have cooperation so the perfect match in that definition will never happen.

Boiling what he said to basics is that it wasn't the greatest match of all time which would be the only reason to give it six stars. Since the scale is supposed to only go to 4 like movie and tv reviews.
Thank you.
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Old 01-14-2017, 06:46 PM   #31580
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The point about winning a title via countout in Japan is irrelevant. You shouldn't end the biggest match of your biggest show in that fashion. That is why you don't build to a countout finish. It's really not rocket science.

I'm not saying the table spot was the worst thing ever, by the way. We have become so desensitized to that sort of thing we're used to seeing it and now it doesn't matter as much. Soon Dragon Superplexes won't be accepted as finishing moves either. But it is a perfectly valid observation to say "Hey, maybe that shouldn't have been done that way." Neither of those spots was necessary to the match, I've heard both cited as moments where even people who loved the match got taken out of it. That doesn't mean the match is an instant write-off, but to say that they were perhaps missteps tonally is not fucking insane.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:02 PM   #31581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Doing moves no one could get up from and "selling too much" are not actually in contradiction to each other, and you can gather that from the context of what Cornette is saying, surely. One was a point about the excessive nature of the spots and the other was about the pacing of the match. Also, if the moves are moves you shouldn't get up from, and you get up at all, then it goes to follow that you aren't selling properly. This was fairly clearly Cornette's point. Lots of ill-timed lying around punctuated by big moves that should have involved more lying around.

The point about the perfect match isn't a contradiction either. Even if you accept the first three, as you put it (and New Japan World is actually under-performing, sadly, even though this did spike it), you're still left with the cooperation aspect. So it's not a perfect match. Cornette is responding to assertions that this was a 6-star match. That is better than perfect. Corny's just saying that the match wasn't perfect and here is why. Then he lists the perfectly valid reasons why. He didn't say it was fucking Tomko/Richards.

I actually didn't catch the bit about the technical stuff, lol. I was making a coffee or something. I'm going to go back and listen to that.
Those moves were part of the story though. Both guys were going to give it everything they had and were not going to take the easy way out of the match. You do low risk moves get the crowd up like they did for that match. I actually thought they sold fine and they beat the hell out of one another I'm sure some of that really hurt and didn't need a lot of selling. I do agree with Jim on the elbows as opposed to the punches though. As for the obvious cooperation the only spot I really seen that had obvious cooperation was the half Nelson suplex off the top rope. I just don't think he watched the match for what it was and didn't get invested in seeing the story that the match told simply because he hates Omega.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:07 PM   #31582
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It's fair enough to say that they were part of the story. They obviously were. I can just understand why people would feel they were the wrong notes to play. I personally thought quite a few times that they were calling things in the ring which I liked. They obviously knew they were going to the table and the top rope for that superplex, but for the most part I thought the match did come off really well.
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:16 PM   #31583
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Old 01-14-2017, 08:52 PM   #31584
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Michael Cole looks a lot older there. How did Nigel McGuinness do on commentary, by the way?
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:02 AM   #31585
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Quote:
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Michael Cole looks a lot older there. How did Nigel McGuinness do on commentary, by the way?
Commentary is really good. Cole is in the same mode he was in when he called Beast in the East.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:15 AM   #31586
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Cole is necessary. He also did very good in play by play. It's not WWE without the voice of the WWE.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:17 AM   #31587
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Do you figure he will be on Raw? How long is a flight 'across the pond?"
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:36 AM   #31588
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Apex Pervert ha!
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:38 AM   #31589
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Do you figure he will be on Raw? How long is a flight 'across the pond?"
Depends where RAW is, it would take him an 8 hour flight to get to NY at least.
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Old 01-15-2017, 01:00 PM   #31590
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Apex Pervert ha!
Better than looking at her face.
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Old 01-15-2017, 01:30 PM   #31591
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Better than looking at her face.
Baylee Jr.
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:03 PM   #31592
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Smart WWE booking the Royal Rumble in the ProBowl Week
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:22 PM   #31593
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Huge titties are huge titties. They must be looked at.
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Old 01-15-2017, 04:51 PM   #31594
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:00 PM   #31595
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So I found out who won the UK tournament and I decided to read up on him.

I got as far as seeing "1997" as part of his date of birth and I closed the window.

I now feel old as shit and also a little bit depressed.
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:17 PM   #31596
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:44 PM   #31597
SlickyTrickyDamon
Quark is Less Impressed.
 
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:45 PM   #31598
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The only thing they are Elite at is shitheads.
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:42 PM   #31599
slik
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:01 PM   #31600
Emperor Smeat
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