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Old 06-13-2017, 08:09 PM   #34441
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I just think it's a dumb spot that falls apart if you think about it. Like, suspension of disbelief aside, I can even explain the psychology of things like the Red Arrow. I just don't get why Okada touches the wrist of his opponent if the beat-down he had put on them previously would cause them to collapse if it were good enough. It just eats itself and it's dumb and annoying, because Okada is so good. But I know a child would watch that and say "that's fake" and tune out, because their fandom hasn't been embedded yet.

I swear wrestling is the only form of storytelling where the performers of it hate that they are doing it and need to point it out to the crowd. It'd be like an actor going "I'm acting everybody! I'm just an actor! I'm playing a character!" We get it. We know. Why are you so insecure that you need us to know that you know? Or is it because fans are so insecure that we need to know that you know that we know? It's just so insecure. And that everyone is so insecure is why we don't have any real stars coming up -- because everybody is so neurotic and secretly hates themselves, and that there is no star is the big problem with wrestling as a whole.

I can't believe people can't see how this is all connected. I want NJPW to succeed so badly, and I'm glad that it endears itself to the the internet fans, because they are going to be crucial to floating it in the US and beyond, but if that shit happens in the main event then I might just have to switch off. That's the one spot I've seen shared from that match, and it just feels bad to me. Why do people like bad stuff? Bad stuff is bad. It's the "Broken" Matt Hardy stuff all over again. Shit things don't become good by winking.

I don't even think this was supposed to be bad. I guess they're trying to sell exhaustion? Okada is so tired that he forgot to hold onto Omega's wrist? Maybe Omega was supposed to break out more strongly and he just sucks at the psychology element of pro-wrestling? I'm sure it doesn't ruin the whole match, don't get me wrong, but it just highlights to me how full of shit anyone who says "Kenny Omega is the best wrestler in the world" is. It's like he starts playing a good song on the piano and then he just starts slamming his hands on the keys to "lol" people.
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Old 06-13-2017, 08:12 PM   #34442
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So many wrestlers are like disruptive high-school kids undergoing adolescence and acting out against teacher because they think it's cool and will make girls like them. That's like the "indy spirit."
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:14 PM   #34443
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Its not bad. Everyones suspension of disbelief is a little different. There are people who probably thing the red arrow is retarded from a realistic standpoint, no matter what you say to explain it.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:29 PM   #34444
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I think we're moving into a post-fact realm here, and I can't really engage in that sphere.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:03 PM   #34445
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Noid, I could write an essay if I wanted to on things that are far more ridiculous than that spot. Things that you probably didn't even blink at, but for some reason this has you triggered.

Quote:
I just don't get why Okada touches the wrist of his opponent if the beat-down he had put on them previously would cause them to collapse if it were good enough."
How is he supposed to just know it was good enough. Last match Omega ate 3-4 rainmakers. Your logic assumes okada knew omega would collapse from the beatdown.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:09 PM   #34446
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You got giddy earlier about john morrison coming back, but I don't see you attacking the fact that a guy capable performing incredible acrobatic and aerial feats, finishes people with a move that kills his momentum a few feet before he lands, and has less impact than anything else he does.

Most people don't think about that. Because it looks cool.
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:32 PM   #34447
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Wonder Woman/Universal title crossover.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:07 PM   #34448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Noid, I could write an essay if I wanted to on things that are far more ridiculous than that spot. Things that you probably didn't even blink at, but for some reason this has you triggered.



How is he supposed to just know it was good enough. Last match Omega ate 3-4 rainmakers. Your logic assumes okada knew omega would collapse from the beatdown.
Of course there are things that are more ridiculous than it. That doesn't mean it isn't ridiculous. I'm sure there are ridiculous things I don't blink at, but the ones that do register as ridiculous are still ridiculous and take you out of a match. That's a ridiculous point to make, lol.

He's going for his finisher. If he hasn't beaten down his opponent to the point where they are about to be finished, then why is he going for his finisher? Why does he touch their arm if he's not pulling them into the move? It's dumb. It's not the dumbest thing I have ever seen, but it's still dumb.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:15 PM   #34449
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You got giddy earlier about john morrison coming back, but I don't see you attacking the fact that a guy capable performing incredible acrobatic and aerial feats, finishes people with a move that kills his momentum a few feet before he lands, and has less impact than anything else he does.

Most people don't think about that. Because it looks cool.
I actually don't like the Starship Pain, but acrobatics like that in wrestling don't annoy me as much, because I can buy that an arrogant heel would do something like that to embarrass his opponent. It's just like The Rock's theatrics before the People's Elbow. For a babyface, moves like that do look cool, and they become something of a stamp for that wrestler. You could always logically just come off with an elbow and monitor your opponent's position a bit more, but if you've assumed that you've put them in a position where you've gotten them relatively discombobulated, it makes sense to finish them off with emphasis so that you can increase your fanbase/make a statement.

It can still be silly. If you've got your opponent beaten, you should go for the win, sure. But what I can't stand is the obvious co-operation stuff. The "I will run into position for this because I want you to hit me" stuff. This falls into that category for me. What it implies is that every wrestler that gets hit with the Rainmaker wants to be hit with it. Otherwise they would have surely flopped to the ground too, since Okada doesn't actually pull you into the move. Surely you can understand my gripe with that?
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:17 PM   #34450
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Well I make that point because if that takes you out of a match, then how does every other ridiculous thing in wrestling not take you out of the match? Because almost all of it is ridiculous.

Why does any wrestler go for a finisher if they have them beaten down to where they are about to be finished?

Okada was just as exausted and just didn't have the strength to yank him forward hard enough.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:19 PM   #34451
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:25 PM   #34452
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Oh my FUCKING GOD! Jinder Mahal's Punjabi is insufferable.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:29 PM   #34453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I actually don't like the Starship Pain, but acrobatics like that in wrestling don't annoy me as much, because I can buy that an arrogant heel would do something like that to embarrass his opponent. It's just like The Rock's theatrics before the People's Elbow. For a babyface, moves like that do look cool, and they become something of a stamp for that wrestler. You could always logically just come off with an elbow and monitor your opponent's position a bit more, but if you've assumed that you've put them in a position where you've gotten them relatively discombobulated, it makes sense to finish them off with emphasis so that you can increase your fanbase/make a statement.

It can still be silly. If you've got your opponent beaten, you should go for the win, sure. But what I can't stand is the obvious co-operation stuff. The "I will run into position for this because I want you to hit me" stuff. This falls into that category for me. What it implies is that every wrestler that gets hit with the Rainmaker wants to be hit with it. Otherwise they would have surely flopped to the ground too, since Okada doesn't actually pull you into the move. Surely you can understand my gripe with that?
All power moves fall into that category, as you can visisbly see the victim cooperating to be more easily lifted. Any irish whip move requires the victim to cooperate because logically you don't have to run in a straight line, or you could just, ya know, stop running.

I don't look at how believeable stuff is, because to me at least, its not about that. If I wanted to see something believable, I'd watch matches from the 20s where they put each other in front facelocks for 8 hours. To me its about the overall story they tell in the match. (and this is what I tell non wrestling fans when they ask me why I watch it knowing its fake) Its about people telling a story, using just body language, facial expressions, and feats of athleticism. Individual moves and spots don't have to be believable, as long as I'm enjoying the story. I'm not going to get out my microscope and dissect a spot that logically doesnt make sense, when it followed a dozen other things including common manuevers that make just as little sense when thought about.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:31 PM   #34454
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Maybe he won't be over as they think he will be in India
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:31 PM   #34455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Well I make that point because if that takes you out of a match, then how does every other ridiculous thing in wrestling not take you out of the match? Because almost all of it is ridiculous.

Why does any wrestler go for a finisher if they have them beaten down to where they are about to be finished?

Okada was just as exausted and just didn't have the strength to yank him forward hard enough.
That's a better attempt to explain it. It's still goofy lol. You could also hypothesize that Okada overestimated the gas Omega had left in the tank and threw himself into the clothesline because he expected Omega to be in strong style mode. I can actually almost trick myself into liking it if I use it to tell the story of Okada for actually thinking so highly of Omega he overestimated him, but that means Omega is dumb for not being as good as Okada thought. And Okada looks dumb for taking the dive. I don't think it's the best way to tell that story, but you guys seem to like it though, so maybe I am in the minority of the dwindling wrestling fans.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:33 PM   #34456
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See, I like how someone tells a story. Sometimes I think you can tell a great story in a really bad way. Everything is really Shakespeare, but not everything is good Shakespeare. I'm fine with rules being broken, but I get more annoyed when I get the impression that someone doesn't understand why that rule is there in the first place. You have to know them to break them properly, as it is in any art form. Wrestling is full of silly rules, you are completely right, but if you just stop and shrug off an Irish whip, I don't particularly get the point of it, because it just exposes how silly it all is. Sometimes things just get too cute and winky and it annoys me. I think wrestling being silly is more of a reason to not draw attention to silly things, not less.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:36 PM   #34457
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Honestly Noid, Dick Beyer is one of the greatest masters of psycology in the history of the business, but if you thought about his matches as much as you're thinking about this spot, you could verbally destroy them.

What I'm saying is, maybe hit a blunt and chill your brain before you watch any wrestling. Because its clearly working overtime on something that really doesn't warrant it.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:38 PM   #34458
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That's a better attempt to explain it. It's still goofy lol. You could also hypothesize that Okada overestimated the gas Omega had left in the tank and threw himself into the clothesline because he expected Omega to be in strong style mode. I can actually almost trick myself into liking it if I use it to tell the story of Okada for actually thinking so highly of Omega he overestimated him, but that means Omega is dumb for not being as good as Okada thought. And Okada looks dumb for taking the dive. I don't think it's the best way to tell that story, but you guys seem to like it though, so maybe I am in the minority of the dwindling wrestling fans.
Okada did go flying across the ring when he missed, so there you go.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:43 PM   #34459
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Maybe he won't be over as they think he will be in India
Isn't there a movement in India where if you aren't Hindi then they don't even count you as Indian? Isn't Mahal like Punjabi Sikh or something? And isn't each region of India radically different from the other ones?

I've only got a limited understand of India through family and friends -- I should really know more about it -- but I've always felt the whole "any Indian will do" idea that the WWE has to be kind of racist -- in a tokenism sort of way. I'd personally feel condescended if the WWE tried to tell me that Jinder Mahal was my national champion. If they put the belt on Buddy Murphy and tried to tell me that he represents all Australians, I'd rightly tell them to fuck off.
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:50 PM   #34460
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Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Honestly Noid, Dick Beyer is one of the greatest masters of psycology in the history of the business, but if you thought about his matches as much as you're thinking about this spot, you could verbally destroy them.

What I'm saying is, maybe hit a blunt and chill your brain before you watch any wrestling. Because its clearly working overtime on something that really doesn't warrant it.
I think what bothers me about it is that it is heralded as great. I liked the first Omega/Okada -- it was a solid **** match to me (I hate rating things, but there you go). I think that even if you consider something flawless (which it can't be, even by fans' own admissions that the second match might have been even better), you need to give things time to breathe to determine that lasting legacy as to whether or not it is truly a ***** match. Austin/Bret you can probably do that with, because it was 20 years ago and we know what it did to Austin's career, etc.

I haven't seen the second match yet, but this sort of buzz around "Look at Omega fall down instead of taking the move he is being set up for" makes me want to not. I'm cool with things being flawed and people making mistakes and bad choices. Daniel Bryan has made mistakes in the ring. Whatever, it's cool. It's just the buzz around some of these annoying choices that puts me off.

It may not have even rubbed me the wrong way if it weren't shared as a gif for the yucks, honestly, but if that's the spot used as a teaser for the match, which I'm sure is great, then it actually puts me off.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:04 AM   #34461
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I was just reminiscing on Shane Douglas (for some reason), and the idea to look up his finisher came to me. I was wondering if it could be used in a more stylized way as sort of a modified inverted stunner -- like how Austin's Stunner was different from a regular jawbreaker.

Anyway, the point is -- be careful when you look up "Shane Douglas Bareback" on Google Images.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:05 AM   #34462
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Also sad is what the suggestion menu says when you just type in "Shane Douglas."
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:07 AM   #34463
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Quote:
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Isn't the point of a short-arm clothesline to trap your opponent so they can't avoid the close-range impact? So what Okada does is just lightly hold his opponent's hand, and what they do is stand up for the Rainmaker on their own merit?
They'd been going for 50 minutes and Okada was clearly most interested in giving the biggest impact, so all his remaining energy is pulling him towards on the left side and pushing forward on the right hand clothesline, so Omega could drop. In the context of the match, it is an amazing visual.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:53 AM   #34464
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I like that explanation, Hasney.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:55 AM   #34465
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Still think it's a bit weak, but I will allow it to stand on its merits with applied context. This is why meme culture can be negative -- it's removed the context.

I think I'm going to redirect my WWE Network money towards New Japan. I want to support an alternative company.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:58 AM   #34466
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Originally Posted by Emo Dave View Post
Fuck I hated that match, haha. I get to the point of the double handspring and I check out.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:51 AM   #34467
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:20 AM   #34468
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Quote:
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Fuck I hated that match, haha. I get to the point of the double handspring and I check out.
It is the fireworks match to end all fireworks matches. All that oohing and aahing and at the end I'm done with it.

There is a guy around my part who wrestles under the name White Mike. He came off as a low rent Joey Ryan. No dick spots (thank god, I think that well is dry by now), but plenty of intentionally missed spots. Like opponent is 3/4s of ring away and he does a Swanton, missing by half the ring for lulz.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:20 PM   #34469
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Eh, to each their own. It's just not for me.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:21 PM   #34470
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:27 PM   #34471
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How's Nakamura doing on SmackDown? I haven't watched in quite a while, but I was hoping he'd heat things up.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:41 PM   #34472
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He's pretty much just another guy in the main event ranks.
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Old 06-14-2017, 05:19 PM   #34473
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Pretty much.

Debut was handled pretty well and so was keeping the mystic for his first match but his booking and build so far has made him feel as just another guy on the roster.

Then again Smackdown overall still feels as its trying to regain its groove that got messed up from the Shakeup.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:49 PM   #34474
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I was never a Cody Rhodes fan. Liked him when he'd get a gimmick. "Disfigured" Cody was great. I liked Stardust. But when he was just Cody, he bored me.



The guy is fucking money since leaving WWE though. If there was ever a glaringly obvious piece of evidence how much scripting and micromanaging guys makes wrestling shit...
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:57 PM   #34475
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This question may be a touch dark but

Who dies first Lex Luger or Tammy Sytch?
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:00 AM   #34476
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Xavier Woods on the origin of his trombone gimmick with New Day from Giantbomb's E3 night show earlier tonight:

Quote:
"I was supposed to hand it off to the prop guy before the match started, but I realized, "I'm never going to have a chance to play trombone on live TV again." So I started playing it during the match for no reason, and one of the camera guys came to me during the commercial and said, "VINCE... IS... LOVING THIS!" When I got to the back Vince told me, "this is it. You're out there with that trombone every night."
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:15 AM   #34477
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Quote:
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I was never a Cody Rhodes fan. Liked him when he'd get a gimmick. "Disfigured" Cody was great. I liked Stardust. But when he was just Cody, he bored me.



The guy is fucking money since leaving WWE though. If there was ever a glaringly obvious piece of evidence how much scripting and micromanaging guys makes wrestling shit...
He's an upper mid card guy. Still is. He hasn't exactly been putting on 4 star matches. He's a slightly less talented Dolph Ziggler.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:30 AM   #34478
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Did Shinsuke infer that Dolph Ziggler would do a lot better in Japan on the latest Talking Smackdown show?
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:04 AM   #34479
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Quote:
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He's an upper mid card guy. Still is. He hasn't exactly been putting on 4 star matches. He's a slightly less talented Dolph Ziggler.
He's definitely an upper mid card guy. The difference is, he's a REALLY good upper mid card guy now. In WWE he was just another one of those generic guys in the upper mid card because everyone is booked/scripted the exact same.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:34 AM   #34480
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He's really not done anything that impressive since leaving. His stuff as Dashing Cody Rhodes is miles better and more interesting than anything he's done now.
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