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View Poll Results: Who is the better wrestler?
John Cena 11 37.93%
Andre The Giant 18 62.07%
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:55 PM   #41
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lol@ HHH
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Linda McMahon's political career has nothing to do with it. You can do PG and make it good. It's just bad booking, and in some cases, poor execution from Cena. He's a hell of a talent but IMO would have gotten chewed up in the shark tank during the attitude era.
Linda McMahon political career is the reason we have a PG era. And I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Wrestling was an edgy thing and violent af. It's hard to be edgy and violent and believable when everything has to be catered to 10 year olds instead of adults. Try and make any other wrestling organization or fighting organization go PG and they would fold up and die.

That's why people drifted away from the PG era. Older fans experienced what wrestling used to be and saw a superior product. Them you take away the edginess of it. The you never know what will happen aspect is gone. Suddenly guys who came off as believable during promos are spouting childish nonsense and have to be involved in increasingly stupid feuds. Moves that were staples of wrestling suddenly get banned because omg someone might get hurt. We can't show this stuff to children! Why not, you always have?

So bye bye adult crowd. And I don't know about you, but even when I was a kid, I was drawn to wrestling because it was fantastically violent and unhinged and kind of taboo in a way. I wasn't allowed to say or do this stuff, so it was an amazing outlet. With this PG era, you don't draw as many kids. You know why? Because they can still get those same kind of kicks from other avenues of entertainment that aren't concerned with dumbing down their product for appearance and to help someone in a floundering political career.

There are some things that go out the door with PG. They lost their ability to be believable. They aren't going to get it back until they remove the safety. It's like a good violent action movie, like John Wick. Make a PG version of it and I bet you it flops. Because it won't be believable and the actors will have scripts that make them sound like idiotic teenagers being overdramatic.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:02 PM   #43
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Did you know wrestling was PG before the Attitude Era?
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:04 PM   #44
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total fucking cop out and complete myth. They were on the decline BIG TIME before the PG era. Revisionist nonsense. Started declining during the invasion.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:04 PM   #45
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And the big boom in the 80s was 100% PG.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:06 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Also when you are booked to go undefeated for 15 years you pretty much automatically become a legend. A legend because that's what the booker wanted you to be. Goldberg went undefeated for like a year and a half and look how that made him a star even though in reality he is balls.
Andre the Giant wasn't really undefeated for 15 years. He would also be body slammed far more regularly than promoted by Vince. Andre would go around to territories and basically pop them by letting their babyface slam him and look good, maybe get a countout win or something. You're buying into the hype machine for Andre there, and that says something about his mystique.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seph View Post
You are absolutely right here. It has been a bad era. But that isn't his fault. That's the Era of PG booking. Things were already going downhill before he became the draw. It should say something for him that when shit gets bad they pretty much fall back on Cena as the only hope to salvage things. Because no one else other than part time special attractions from a more popular Era can do it for them. Every time Cena goes on hiatus it seems like there is a legit downturn in the ratings and the quality of the whole product. That's why they hype him up so hard imo...they know he is the only real star they have that people will buy into.

I often wonder how well Cena would have drawn in the attitude Era when he wouldn't have been held back or dumbed down. And even though it is pure conjecture....I think he would have legit been the biggest thing in wrestling history. He can pull groups of people in that none of the others could have. Young people would have flocked to him. He would have run circles around everyone other than the rock promo wise. He was better in ring than SCSA or The Rock or HHH. He is a legit total package, a true star, and he has been held back to protect Linda McMahon political career.
Ratings would actually do better when someone else would grab the belt off Cena. Edge winning the belt off Cena blasted them up half a ratings point. I remember reading somewhere that ratings generally held better under Orton than Cena. Ratings have been going down ever since Stephanie McMahon entered creative, but Cena hasn't exactly been this dude that has made a noticeable positive difference to the product, in any terms of television metric, until quite recently into his long, long, long push.

I completely disagree with the sentiment about him being better in the ring than all of those guys except Triple H. Austin and Rock were magnetic and fantastic at holding fans' interests. Promo-wise? Cena can talk alright, but I'm not sure he doesn't get smoked by the authentic bad-assery of Austin and Rock. Some of Cena's promos actually manage to miss the point of themselves too. He's not a god on the mic. Some of his stuff stinks. Some is excellent.

Honestly, I'm not sure he makes it past mid-card in the Attitude era.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:06 PM   #47
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Hard to turn back the clock on that stuff though. Once you light a guy on fire its not easy to start telling poop jokes
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:08 PM   #48
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Also Cena hasnt been good for tv but he's been killer for merch. Respect where its due.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:08 PM   #49
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5-9...still undecided
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
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Hard to turn back the clock on that stuff though. Once you light a guy on fire its not easy to start telling poop jokes
That's the thing though, they didn't have to tell poop jokes because they were pg. That is just Vince being a fucking idiot. It could still be violent, but just dial back on the blood and gratuity. But let's get serious, Vince and co. don't really understand subtlety and nuance.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
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5-9...still undecided
It's a good one, Cowboy Bill Watts at it again.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:10 PM   #52
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Another reason for the PG era is to bring back advertisers. If you've got good sponsors and can hold a good place in the ratings, it's more likely that the USA Network isn't going to boot you, and destroy a key stream of revenue. Despite being #1 in cable, RAW has been bounced off networks before because they've just decided they want to go in a different direction. A large part of that is the perception of wrestling that the Attitude era helped foster.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:11 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
That's the thing though, they didn't have to tell poop jokes because they were pg. That is just Vince being a fucking idiot. It could still be violent, but just dial back on the blood and gratuity. But let's get serious, Vince and co. don't really understand subtlety and nuance.
Ibe never bought into wrestling with out blood though. Red is green baby.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:12 PM   #54
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Quote:
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Ibe never bought into wrestling with out blood though. Red is green baby.
They could potentially censor it out too, and use it only in special moments. Attitude era used too much blood. Guys were gigging every fucking week, was stupid as shit.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:14 PM   #55
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My Rushmore is Cena, Hogan, Austin, and Y2J. Y2J may be replaced with Flair depending on the given day.

Andre is amazing and probably the best special attraction wrestling will ever see. But Cena is just a total package. You can't blame him for the ratings decreasing since that was happening regardless. If anything, Cena brought in little kids to help combat the decline of the crop of fans leaving.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:15 PM   #56
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I dunno if I made this up, but I swear during the 80s when someone got hit with a chair or something a big red "CENSORED" text would come over where the chair was connecting.......
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:15 PM   #57
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I like the old method random gigging. Sells the danger element.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:16 PM   #58
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Quote:
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My Rushmore is Cena, Hogan, Austin, and Y2J. Y2J may be replaced with Flair depending on the given day.

Andre is amazing and probably the best special attraction wrestling will ever see. But Cena is just a total package. You can't blame him for the ratings decreasing since that was happening regardless. If anything, Cena brought in little kids to help combat the decline of the crop of fans leaving.


Jericho??????????

...we will save this for another day...
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:16 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
I dunno if I made this up, but I swear during the 80s when someone got hit with a chair or something a big red "CENSORED" text would come over where the chair was connecting.......
yep
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:17 PM   #60
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Quote:
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My Rushmore is Cena, Hogan, Austin, and Y2J. Y2J may be replaced with Flair depending on the given day.
lol I love Y2J but he and Cena have no place there. I mean I guess if it's your personal one then sure. But damn.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:19 PM   #61
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I imagine Rushmore Jericho sculpted with him doing his biggest "troll" smile
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:21 PM   #62
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Quote:
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lol I love Y2J but he and Cena have no place there. I mean I guess if it's your personal one then sure. But damn.
Naw. Personal one would have Angle. Imo the GOAT but wasn't around long enough.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:13 PM   #63
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Why would Jericho be on your mount rushmore?
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:54 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
My Rushmore is Cena, Hogan, Austin, and Y2J. Y2J may be replaced with Flair depending on the given day.

Andre is amazing and probably the best special attraction wrestling will ever see. But Cena is just a total package. You can't blame him for the ratings decreasing since that was happening regardless. If anything, Cena brought in little kids to help combat the decline of the crop of fans leaving.
I've got no clue how Jericho makes it in there. But yes, you can blame Cena, in part, for ratings declining, because they happened because he was the big draw. Again, I point you towards guys more people would watch if they got the belt (Edge, Orton, etc.). Cena didn't plug any sort of sinkhole -- he was the sinkhole.

He did great merchandise with the audience he did strengthen, and he's not a bad wrestler by any stretch; but this idea that he has somehow been a draw needs to be dismissed. He isn't. Ratings are now dependent on him, because they've jammed so much into the John Cena train that when he's not there everything gets derailed. That's a different thing to spiking ratings based on how hot you are as an act during the main body of your career.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:57 PM   #65
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Austin, Hogan, Flair and Andre are probably the national era Rushmore, to be perfectly honest. Destor's point aside, I do think you can make a case for Rock -- given that we are talking about a specific window of time anyway, and Rock is easily one of the biggest stars in that time frame.
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:00 PM   #66
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Austin, Hogan, Rock and Bruno
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:21 PM   #67
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Dont understand the lack of Flair...
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Old 06-30-2017, 11:38 PM   #68
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I believe we have had several threads about a rassling Mount Rushmore.

WWE.com also picked their Mount Rushmore in an article:

SPOILER: show


Undertaker, Stone Cold, Darren Young, and Hulk Hogan
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:06 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I've got no clue how Jericho makes it in there. But yes, you can blame Cena, in part, for ratings declining, because they happened because he was the big draw. Again, I point you towards guys more people would watch if they got the belt (Edge, Orton, etc.). Cena didn't plug any sort of sinkhole -- he was the sinkhole.

He did great merchandise with the audience he did strengthen, and he's not a bad wrestler by any stretch; but this idea that he has somehow been a draw needs to be dismissed. He isn't. Ratings are now dependent on him, because they've jammed so much into the John Cena train that when he's not there everything gets derailed. That's a different thing to spiking ratings based on how hot you are as an act during the main body of your career.
Ratings were already decreasing before Cena was on top though.
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:08 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Why would Jericho be on your mount rushmore?
Dude is amazing at everything he does. Face/heel it does not matter. He reinvented himself more times than I can count. He has the longevity too. He has no cracks in his game. He is basically Flair besides being able to be a face.
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:21 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
Linda McMahon political career is the reason we have a PG era.
And meanwhile, let's all put on our blinders and our rose-colored glasses and pretend Benoit never happened. I'm sorry, dude, I love you as a poster, but you're absolutely out of your fucking mind if you seriously think what happened surrounding him 10 years ago now wasn't the original catalyst for WWE going PG in 2008. Did Linda's political aspirations have some small factor? I'm sure they did, but not nearly as much as you'd have us believe.

Just sayin'.
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:30 AM   #72
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My Mount rushmore would be as follows:

Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Undertaker and Ric Flair
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:51 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
Dont understand the lack of Flair...
I've never been able to judge Flair historically. He's so "rassling" that I'm not sure he really crosses over into the mainstream conscience the same way. It's not a knock on him, and I'm probably underestimating him, but he doesn't feel as "huge" as guys who did transcend. I feel dumb typing that though.

I think if WCW had won the Monday Night War, Flair would be on without question. He probably should be anyway. Limiting this to four is just dumb, really.
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:54 AM   #74
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How is it "dumb" exactly? Is it "dumb" to have the Final Four consist of the only four teams?
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Old 07-01-2017, 12:57 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Dude is amazing at everything he does. Face/heel it does not matter. He reinvented himself more times than I can count. He has the longevity too. He has no cracks in his game. He is basically Flair besides being able to be a face.
I personally enjoyed babyface Jericho from 2000/2001, but I heard that he doesn't really hold up. Plus, his face runs since have been fairly bland and uninspired. It seems like he's just got Y2J gear as a face. His 2008 heel run was brilliant, but his latest return, beyond a few inspired mic performances, was pretty underwhelming. I think he's just about done in the ring, to be honest. He can no longer deliver to the level that people expect.

A great career, but let's not forget how awful his Undisputed Champion push was. Jericho himself admits that he hadn't yet developed the skills to play a heavyweight, top-tier, main event heel.

Flair could also be an amazing babyface who drew money. You also have a lot of other people who can do it both about as well, if not better than Jericho. I'd say Angle was about as good a babyface as Jericho was. Angle actually managed to win the WWE Title as a babyface. Eddie Guerrero was brilliant in both roles. Shawn Michaels may have suffered as a babyface in his initial run, but during his second run, he was seamless in both roles. Austin and Rock can play both characters effectively.

I don't really get why Jericho is being ranked a notch about everyone else here. A great talent, but far from the greatest in any area, far from the most well-rounded, and far from the most effective.
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Old 07-01-2017, 01:01 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAMN iNATOR View Post
How is it "dumb" exactly? Is it "dumb" to have the Final Four consist of the only four teams?
Why even do a Mt. Rushmore of wrestling? Why is that even a thing? You have to overlook so many important contributors from different eras. It's restrictive and doesn't cover any area of consensus without further clarification.
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Old 07-01-2017, 01:03 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lock Jaw View Post
I believe we have had several threads about a rassling Mount Rushmore.

WWE.com also picked their Mount Rushmore in an article:

SPOILER: show


Undertaker, Stone Cold, Darren Young, and Hulk Hogan
Of course Undertaker and Cena make it on. It's actually not a bad one in the strict "WWE canon," where they can basically assert whatever truth they want. I wouldn't be surprised if Triple H nudged off Hogan.
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Old 07-01-2017, 01:04 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
Ratings were already decreasing before Cena was on top though.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean Cena was the best choice for business, because he evidently wasn't. Business going on a downward trend in no way excuses you making it worse. That's the excuse Russo defenders use when backing up his WCW run. If ratings go up when you lose, then you are a little bit to blame.
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Old 07-01-2017, 02:32 AM   #79
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Linda McMahon political career is the reason we have a PG era. And I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Wrestling was an edgy thing and violent af. It's hard to be edgy and violent and believable when everything has to be catered to 10 year olds instead of adults. Try and make any other wrestling organization or fighting organization go PG and they would fold up and die.

That's why people drifted away from the PG era. Older fans experienced what wrestling used to be and saw a superior product. Them you take away the edginess of it. The you never know what will happen aspect is gone. Suddenly guys who came off as believable during promos are spouting childish nonsense and have to be involved in increasingly stupid feuds. Moves that were staples of wrestling suddenly get banned because omg someone might get hurt. We can't show this stuff to children! Why not, you always have?

So bye bye adult crowd. And I don't know about you, but even when I was a kid, I was drawn to wrestling because it was fantastically violent and unhinged and kind of taboo in a way. I wasn't allowed to say or do this stuff, so it was an amazing outlet. With this PG era, you don't draw as many kids. You know why? Because they can still get those same kind of kicks from other avenues of entertainment that aren't concerned with dumbing down their product for appearance and to help someone in a floundering political career.

There are some things that go out the door with PG. They lost their ability to be believable. They aren't going to get it back until they remove the safety. It's like a good violent action movie, like John Wick. Make a PG version of it and I bet you it flops. Because it won't be believable and the actors will have scripts that make them sound like idiotic teenagers being overdramatic.
Remember when DX came back before the PG era and was all edgy with their dropping diarrhea on people's heads, raising the pitch of Vince McMahon's voice so that he sounded funny and drawing dialogue bubbles coming from his mouth that said "I love cocks" with a picture of a rooster? Yeah...

WWE was lame and out of touch before the PG era. PG is not the problem.
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Old 07-01-2017, 06:09 AM   #80
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Jericho was super over in his recent run Noidsy. Worked in today's landscape. I know you love to be a hater of the current product, but he got a list over, as well as the phrases "You're gonna get... it" and "stupid idiot". Great character work. Clunkier in the ring but he's well into his 40s.
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