Cornette vs Russo: The Definitive Thread The most entertaining angle in wrestling right now!

[Mr. Nerfect]

God, I wish I knew more about Chris Kreski. There's so little about him out there.

[BigCrippyZ]

Originally Posted by Noid It would have been great to know his mind a bit more before he passed. When Stephanie McMahon took over creative is when things really started to fall. That being said, I'm not entirely sure the Attitude era was sustainable anyway. It'd be interesting to know where Kreski planned to take things.

I don't think the popularity in itself was sustainable, especially not with Rock and Austin eventually having to both leave at some point regardless.

Would love to know what Kreski would've done differently over the last 20+ years, or what he and Heyman could've done together if they'd gotten the chance to work together. No doubt it would likely be miles better than most of what we've seen, though I'm also not sure that's saying enough given today's lack of quality.

[BigCrippyZ]

I wonder how much Kreski's storyboards, etc., helped Vince (and maybe even the talent, etc.?) keep track and realize the importance and impact of continuity in the stories?

[Ezra]

I had no idea I lived so close to Russo until I listened to Cornette's promo. I am going to infiltrate the Russo ranch and befriend him. For what reason I have no idea.

[Nicky Fives]

Bro, Cornette all the way, BRO....

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

Cornette is just a way better performer as well. Way less selfish

[Maluco]

When I say they are two sides of the same coin, I mean they are both stubborn, arrogant and too set in their ways to adapt to the times and learn from other people.

I know Corbett's fans like what he says about wrestler and it appeals to old school fans, but he is completely lost to what modern day fans want to see and that has been proven. He has failed much more than he has succeeded, same with Russo.

And they both fail for the same reason, they are far more similar than they think. They are both too old to learn new tricks now anyway though.

As entertaining as Cornette is as a personality, his views in wrestling are dated and he is too stubborn, arrogant and ill tempered to be of any use in 2017.

Although, like fan said above and Corgan has said previously, I don't think anyone has a formula for 2017 and right now, everyone is failing in at least some way.

[Destor]

What are the new tricks?

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Maluco When I say they are two sides of the same coin, I mean they are both stubborn, arrogant and too set in their ways to adapt to the times and learn from other people. I know Corbett's fans like what he says about wrestler and it appeals to old school fans, but he is completely lost to what modern day fans want to see and that has been proven. He has failed much more than he has succeeded, same with Russo. And they both fail for the same reason, they are far more similar than they think. They are both too old to learn new tricks now anyway though. As entertaining as Cornette is as a personality, his views in wrestling are dated and he is too stubborn, arrogant and ill tempered to be of any use in 2017. Although, like fan said above and Corgan has said previously, I don't think anyone has a formula for 2017 and right now, everyone is failing in at least some way.

Man, I don't think Cornette's views are that dated. I know the ROH stuff didn't go well, but NXT is basically a glossy version of SMW and what Cornette had envisioned for ROH. I think it was the wrong promotion to do it with, and because indy wrestling hadn't really penetrated the WWE as much, I don't think smarks on the scene were ready for the change. I honestly think that Corny was actually ahead of his time with that one, as weird as that is to say.

Look at ROH today (and I know it's not the best it's ever been). Dalton Castle, Bully Ray, Silas Young -- there are a few more "old-school" and "rasslin'" influences in there now. I concede that the product isn't "white-hot" anymore, but the WWE have essentially neutured any impact ROH can potentially make by being a super indy, because they have adapted so much of the talent and style that it is no longer alternative.

I wouldn't call OVW and SMW "failures." SMW was one of the last viable territories. I'd actually give the nod to ECW being the last one, but SMW is undervalued for what it gave to pro-wrestling. OVW is still the only successful developmental league the WWE has ever had. NXT is a finishing school. I don't even know if I'd consider his TNA run a "failure." Like with Dutch, I'd consider it a pretty good run, albeit marred by Russorifics by the end.

His run as a performer has certainly not been a failure. I know I'm a bit of a Cornette mark, but if you use the measure of success that "they're not running a company or aren't in the WWE" to determine whether or not someone is a failure then I think you're looking at pretty much everybody as a failure.

Stubborn? Sure, but I sort of admire that. He sticks to his philosophies of logic and straight-forward angles and storytelling. He's a wrestling prescriptivist -- there are rules for a reason; they work, so don't fuck with them. And there are good rules that are broken way too much these days. Some other minds might be more of a wrestling descriptivist -- cultural changes mean that wrestling needs to change, and you can break rules once you know what they are.

Truth be told, I don't even think Corny is against breaking rules, he just gets mad that no one knows what they are anymore.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Destor What are the new tricks?

Oomph. There's a logic bomb.

[Maluco]

Originally Posted by Destor What are the new tricks?

It's a new audience, the world is a different place, you have to evolve and be open to learning and adapting. I don't think either of these men are. A lot of the formula is still the same, working the crowd, having stars that people want to see etc...

But Stone Cold is different to Hogan, is different to Backlund, is different to Sammartino. Times change and people in any professional or walk of life can never assume that they know it all.

[erickman]

yeah it showed no one knew the rules in the cage tag match at extreme rules

[Gerard]

LoL @ "The arch bishop of Talent-bury"

[Maluco]

I think Cornette is a great personality btw, but I also think he can be very hard to listen to because he is so abusive.

He says a lot of good stuff, but he also hasn't changed a bit and I think you have to.

I am basically arguing that the core of wrestling is the same, but his hall of fame speech, for example. He acted like the Midnight Express were still doing it today and hailed them for still bringing it 30 years later.

He is stuck in the past and doesn't understand the changes that wrestling has undergone.

I think it would be great if they listened to him on how to make a star, for example.

But he doesn't have all the answers and it can get insufferable listening to someone with a patchy track record, acting like they do.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by Maluco It's a new audience, the world is a different place, you have to evolve and be open to learning and adapting. I don't think either of these men are. A lot of the formula is still the same, working the crowd, having stars that people want to see etc... But Stone Cold is different to Hogan, is different to Backlund, is different to Sammartino. Times change and people in any professional or walk of life can never assume that they know it all.

The characters are modern and "hip" but structurally its as it has been for 40 years

[Destor]

Shine heat comeback finish. Build heat to the blow off send em home happy. The end,

[Mr. Nerfect]

It's a myth that Corny doesn't like new wrestling, by the way. I feel the need to state that, because it always seems to pop up, and seemingly smart people perpetuate it constantly. That's a line that a few indy darlings that have been called into the principal's office use as a straw-man to dismiss a guy who yells at them, which culturally isn't a form of education they feel is appropriate anymore.

I personally don't mind those sorts of mentors, because I find them very easy to deal with. If you're straight forward with them and say "Yeah, I fucked up, how can I not fuck up next time?" usually they are happy to tell you and then next time you know what they are looking for. Shit gets out of hand when you are stubborn yourself and don't take the responsibility for your perceived fuck-up. If you smirk, back-chat or just ignore the advice. Cornette has told the story about him blowing up at John Cena just once about going over time. Cena never went over time again.

Talking about opposite sides of the same coin, I think that is why Cornette and Owens didn't get along in ROH. Owens thought he was a genius, Cornette knows he is a genius, and they disagree -- but they can't both be right. There was also the shift from ROH from being a super indy with trashy wrestling, no logical flow, too many high spots, violence against women, etc. and a move towards a more palatable wrestling product -- with a building story throughout a show, etc. I can imagine a lot of talent felt their artistic license being inhibited by that.

In the recent past, Cornette has praised:

* The Briscoe Brothers - thinks they are the best team in wrestling

* The Revival - thinks they are the best thing in the WWE

* American Alpha - basically alluded to Chad Gable being a prodigy; but thinks they can improve (that's worth listening to)

* John Cena - thinks he is the ultimate professional

* The Hardys - hasn't watched it, but thinks they are talented and applauded Matt for reinventing himself (something I don't agree with)

* Kevin Owens - thinks he is good in the ring and can cut a helluva promo

* Sami Zayn - great in the ring, tremendous seller and strong for his frame

* Cesaro - was disappointed the WWE broke up The Kings of Wrestling but is glad to see him get a shot

* Seth Rollins - thinks he is one of the hardest working people in the business

* Davey Richards - thought that his matches with Seth Rollins could be the modern equivalent to Flair/Steamboat (how's that for praise?)

* Jay Lethal - thinks he is such a tremendous talent who can work, promo, and takes his craft seriously

* Tyler Bate - thinks he is very good in the ring, and just thinks it's a shame he looks so young, but that he will grow into himself

* Pete Dunne - loves him as a heel and thinks that as he gets older he will wear it more and more

* Dolph Ziggler - describes him as "the perfect professional wrestler" (something I'm not entirely sure I agree with)

* Christopher Daniels - thinks he is a tremendous talent that has never had the proper shot he deserves

* Samoa Joe - his WrestleMania main event is Brock Lesnar vs. Samoa Joe, which is something I've heard echoed by so many people in response to Brock vs. Joe being announced

* The Young Bucks - as human beings, he says they are "nice kids"

His big gripes are with Kenny Omega's performative development, The Young Bucks using no psychology, Joey Ryan for doing shit with his dick for attention, Vince Russo for being a hack, Sami Zayn for being a pain to deal with in ROH (which is now his WWE gimmick, so maybe there was something to that?), Kevin Owens being a perceived prick in ROH, and Kenny King being a slimeball and lying to his employers.

Because some of those names are held in such high regard by smarks, it becomes the accepted canon. "Cornette is an old man yelling at clouds." I honestly think he is too smart for most wrestlers and wrestling fans, haha, so it's easier to just dismiss him than make a point that actually responds to his. Kenny King recently retorted with homophobic slurs to Corny; Joey Ryan has called Corny a homophobe (coming from the beacon of virtue who gets women to touch his dick and flip around). The Young Bucks are constantly evading the points Cornette makes and just say stuff like "He doesn't yell at us in person," and "Wrestling needs to evolve, brah!". Kenny Omega has just said "That's hilarious. Yeah, I heard he went off on me. That's really funny. Here's a straw-man point to attempt to lower his character, and I think he just wants a rub from The Bucks. He's probably working."

I dunno, it's like the people Jim criticizes can't cognitively comprehend what Cornette actually says. I know most of them aren't probably the sort of people used to constructing arguments and retorting in effective and affluent ways, so it probably does come out as a bit childish when put on the spot, but I just find it funny that people are like "Yeah, good point! Cornette is old!"

Anyone into wrestling could really learn a lot from hearing him talk about the modern product. I keep admitting that I am a mark for him, but I am also someone who changes my mind when faced with evidence (I like to think so anyway). Cornette won me over. I've learnt stuff that I didn't like about the current product from him that I didn't even consciously realize. It's not that I'm impressionable, but it's because he knows so much about what he is talking about, he can identify the stuff most people pick up subconsciously.

I recommended the American Alpha vs. Revival break-down above. Hearing Cornette fly into an analysis of the match was like a physicist at a whiteboard. He broke things down to a quantum level, things that most fans wouldn't even notice, but go towards making the great stuff perfect. It's worth listening to. But he also pointed out stuff with Braun Strowman I hadn't noticed -- how they are actually building him up wrong, despite basically everyone else wetting themselves over his booking.

You're missing out if you just rule everything he says out as archaic.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by Destor Shine heat comeback finish. Build heat to the blow off send em home happy. The end,

You make it sound simple, but more and more often there are obvious rules being weirdly and completely broken. Like that Handicap Match with Kalisto & Apollo Crews (the faces) against Dolph Ziggler (the heel). It was just...what the fuck is going on here?

And then on RAW you had some wonky stuff going on with Cesaro & Sheamus and Anderson & Gallows at the time, where they used two referees and yet the heels won clean? It was just basic "too cute" kind of stuff that ignored the point of what you've established in the first place.

[Maluco]

I get what you both are saying, and I do concede that he has probably forgotten more about wrestling than most people learn in their lives. I also concede that wrestling, at its core, is the same.

I still think there is room, however, for both those things to be true and for Cornette to still be abrasive, to still be arrogant and to be resistant to learning what HAS changed in wrestling.

Bill Watts is a brilliant example here. In his day, a top performer and promotor, but as the mid nineties roll around, enough has changed to make him out of touch in the new WCW, his tenure there being a disaster because he was too stubborn and stuck in his ways.

He might have known how to build a match, how to create a star, how to manipulate a crowd, and how to sell tickets in the eighties, but things do change and by the mid-ninties, enough has changed that wrestling had passed Bill Watts by.

I am not saying Cornette is exactly the same, because like you say, his breakdown of psychology and how to work a crowd is extremely informative and he could be very helpful in that light. But wrestling promotions in 2017 would fail in the hands of Jim Cornette, because he already feels like he knows it all and refuses to compromise.

While that admirable in some ways, like you say, it can ultimately be your undoing, as it was for Watts

[Mr. Nerfect]

I think that's a fair sentiment. I don't exactly agree with it, but I do understand where you are coming from too. Bill Watts is a good example of not keeping up, but I also think that Cornette did a better job than what you are implying.

He gave The Thrillseekers their US start. Those guys were pretty "trendy" at the time. Those fucking videos with them on horseback though...

In ROH he was a big proponent of the Seth Rollins/Davey Richards matches. He's been big on getting more of an MMA influence into wrestling. He calls the UFC "the best wrestling company in the world today." When he tears apart The Young Bucks and Joey Ryan, he's tearing apart stuff that is more a devolution than an evolution. He's tearing down a parody of wrestling that tries to highlight how fake and fun and happy it all is, because it's counterproductive to the elements that will sell out arenas. I think it's a very fair and logical point. If you do 11 superkicks a match, how is anybody going to buy it as a finish? It makes you look dumb because you can't kick hard, and it makes anyone who does go down to a superkick look like they've got a glass jaw. You might pop a few drunk dudes who like the sound of someone slapping their leg and already have a built-in appreciation of the superkick as a special move, but how is that going to draw in new fans? You're throwing away your tools and pissing your pants at the same time. And it's, frankly, selfish behaviour to do that just before someone goes out there and tries to win a match with their Superkick, because you've just pissed all over their move.

It's weird, because all the indy geeks claim that wrestling is "art" and needs to evolve, yet all this shit would be like going to a film and then there are eight explosions in the first five minutes. It's white noise and messy and people get bored easily, unless you are already a mark for excess, because you think quantity > quality. The Young Bucks are the "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen" of pro-wrestling, except they aren't drawing money.

[Destor]

Originally Posted by Noid You make it sound simple, but more and more often there are obvious rules being weirdly and completely broken. Like that Handicap Match with Kalisto & Apollo Crews (the faces) against Dolph Ziggler (the heel). It was just...what the fuck is going on here? And then on RAW you had some wonky stuff going on with Cesaro & Sheamus and Anderson & Gallows at the time, where they used two referees and yet the heels won clean? It was just basic "too cute" kind of stuff that ignored the point of what you've established in the first place.

Ive always told people that the only rule in wrestling is there are exceptions to every rule except that one

[Mr. Nerfect]

[Savio]

Never want to hear Cornette utter another word.

[mike adamle]

Agreed. So annoying and senile.

[Ol Dirty Dastard]

He's usually working though on his podcast. Like very clear a lot of his stuff is just putting on a show for his audience. People want him to go on rants. And he often plays the part of overbearing heel.

[mike adamle]

That doesn't make me wanna listen to him any more...

[Moose Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead He's usually working though on his podcast. Like very clear a lot of his stuff is just putting on a show for his audience. People want him to go on rants. And he often plays the part of overbearing heel.

Russo does the same exact thing with a different audience.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I dunno, Russo is pretty stupid. I actually believe he thinks half the stuff he says.

[Bad News Gertner]

Lol Russo used to have his own dirt sheet. It was horrendous

[#1-norm-fan]

I've watched some of Russo's podcast. It's a lot of "Marks are gay" and "Dave Meltzer makes a living talking about grown men in their underwear! LOL!" And then he rants about how awful WWE's booking is. It's odd.

[#1-norm-fan]

Also, he says "bro" a lot. NOT SURE IF ANYONE ELSE HAS NOTICED THIS.

[Mr. Nerfect]

He's become this hyper-conservative bigot. It's definitely odd that he thinks wrestling fans are gay, but makes his living from wrestling.

[The MAC]

Cornette Responds to Russo's Apology




Meanwhile...

Russo doles out an apology to Eric Bishoff

[Mr. Nerfect]

Lol, Russo keeping that shitty gimmick up.

[#1-norm-fan]

I stopped watching Russo's when he had to look at his script twice to say "Hello. My name is Vince Russo."

[#1-norm-fan]

Though I have to say, I'm not a fan of Cornette just doing Russo's gimmick. I get what he's going for but I prefer straightforward Cornette. I'd have liked it more if he just came out and said "You fucking dipshit. Do you think a terrible comedy routine is gonna draw attention from the fact that you have no nuts?"

[#1-norm-fan]

Originally Posted by Noid My dream feud is Jim Cornette vs. #1-wwf-fan. I don't know who I would mark out for more.

I don't know who I would mark out for more. I think the only way to end it would be a best-of-seven draw to show that we're equals. Either that or don't book the fucking feud.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I don't know who I would mark out for more. I think the only way to end it would be a best-of-seven draw to show that we're equals. Either that or don't book the fucking feud.

I'd put you over Rock 'n' Roll beating the Midnight in Smoky Mountain style. Cornette begrudging admits you are the better man in a moment of odd babyface honesty from him.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan I stopped watching Russo's when he had to look at his script twice to say "Hello. My name is Vince Russo."

Oh god. I haven't watched it, so thank you for sharing that gem.

[Bad News Gertner]

I'm just waiting for Cornette finds out where Russo lives and blasting him