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Old 07-13-2016, 01:04 AM   #6441
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As a Canadian, I am deeply offended. Keep that shit out of the anthem. If you wanted to make a statement, do it before singing. Wear a t-shirt. Wear a pin. Wear a hat. Disrespectful idiot.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:10 AM   #6442
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Agreed. Really distasteful act. Shitting on a country's anthem is pretty deplorable. Like, wtf were they thinking?
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:52 AM   #6443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
Nope and don't believe anyone else did from those reports and leaks at the time.
The old wild west days.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:05 AM   #6444
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Bet Yost pulled Big Papi from the game as early as he did to make sure the Ortiz love fest didn't last long enough to take MVP away from Hosmer or Perez.
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Old 07-13-2016, 11:59 AM   #6445
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Or maybe because most guys only grey a few at bats at the all star game each year. Hosmer had two hits including a bomb. It's not like he was undeserving.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:11 PM   #6446
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Yost also paid to have chan ho Park groove that pitch to Cal Ripken
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:21 PM   #6447
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Should David Ortiz Have Gotten A Standing Ovation At The All Star Game Last Night?

http://www.barstoolsports.com/boston...me-last-night/
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:42 PM   #6448
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JA Happ got totally snubbed for the asg Corey kluber may be a former cy young and while his numbers aren't bad, he hasn't had the season of Happ. Friggin idiotic.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:47 PM   #6449
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Chris Tillman is 12-2 with a solid 3.41 ERA..he should have gone better record than Haap 12-3
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Old 07-13-2016, 02:13 PM   #6450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
JA Happ got totally snubbed for the asg Corey kluber may be a former cy young and while his numbers aren't bad, he hasn't had the season of Happ. Friggin idiotic.
Not sure what you're basing that on. Their run prevention is similar. Kluber has a better era+, more strikeouts, k/9, k%. Factoring in just walks, strikeouts and homers, Kluber has Happ beat by over a run. WAR has Kluber with a slight edge, 2.6 to 2.1.

The only thing I could see is the win loss record, which is largely useless. If nothing else their more equal but Kluber has better overall numbers.
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:41 PM   #6451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Not sure what you're basing that on. Their run prevention is similar. Kluber has a better era+, more strikeouts, k/9, k%. Factoring in just walks, strikeouts and homers, Kluber has Happ beat by over a run. WAR has Kluber with a slight edge, 2.6 to 2.1.

The only thing I could see is the win loss record, which is largely useless. If nothing else their more equal but Kluber has better overall numbers.
No analytics involved, I see a 3.36 era for Happ and a 12-3 record and a 3.61 ERA for Kluber and he's 8-7. Win-loss is not useless. Good indicator of situational pitching. I don't think it's the BEST indicator, but good ERA and great win loss record means all star. He deserved the nod over Kluber, Kluber got it on prior reputation, no doubt in my mind.

Pitching I think is simple, don't need the ridiculous analytics. Good ERA is a damned good indicator to me of a guy pitching well.
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Old 07-13-2016, 06:12 PM   #6452
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.30 run is not much difference. Not enough to say one guy is better than the other. And yes, win loss record is useless. There's no situational context involved. Their records are based largely on their run support. Happ gets nearly 7 runs a night in his favor. Kluber isn't even in the top 40. Give an equal environment they're likely equal or Kluber is slightly better.

It's like Cliff Lee a few years ago had a losing record despite a sparkling era. It wasn't his fault his team didn't score runs.

Homer goggles aren't a gorgeous look, Mr. Dale.
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:34 PM   #6453
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Dale come on lol
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:44 PM   #6454
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Really hope Dale is trolling. If you honestly believe that, Jason Marquis is a hall of famer.
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:50 PM   #6455
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Only thing that is biased is I've seen Happ pitch and he's been fucking great. Kluber's ERA is only .3 better than R.A. Dickey's so your argument is kind of meh on that front. Plus the only time I saw Kluber pitch he got worked. He's obviously good and he's a strikeout artist, but christ what does Happ have to do? The Jays next to Cleveland are the best starting rotation ERA wise in the AL.

I'm allowed to think a great pitcher from my favourite team deserved a nod due his superior winning record along with a better era without being accused of blatant homerism you butthead.
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:53 PM   #6456
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You're telling me a 20 win season isn't a huge accomplishment?
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:53 PM   #6457
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fuck you spilchuk I'll fite you til the death.
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Old 07-13-2016, 07:56 PM   #6458
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And don't get all preachy on me, Im aware a guy can pitch amazingly with a low win/loss record, ie. Felix Hernandez almost all of the time.
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:18 PM   #6459
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And Drebin I looked up Jason Marquis' numbers. He finished his career 5 games over .500 as a pitcher with a 4.61 career ERA. I thing those 2 numbers line up for a very mediocre pitcher.

Compare that to someone like Roy Halladay who finished his career 100 games over .500 as a pitcher. I'm sorry but even though Win/Loss as a pitcher can me misleading, it can be a pretty damned good indicator of good pitching.
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:25 PM   #6460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droford View Post
Chris Tillman is 12-2 with a solid 3.41 ERA..he should have gone better record than Haap 12-3
Didn't Tilman go to the All Star Game? I swear he was in the line up. If he didn't that is actually pretty dumb too.
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:35 PM   #6461
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Yes. 20 wins isn't some remarkable accomplishment. Because a pitcher has no control of his team scores runs behind him. We've just been preconditioned to think it's great because the media is still behind in what feats are actually great.

And nobody is saying Happ didn't deserve consideration or that you're not allowed to root for him. What people are saying is your logic behind it is incredibly flawed.

You keep citing .3 points in ERA like it's a huge discrepancy. It's not. A third of a run over the long haul is less than 10 runs over 30 starts. It's miniscule.

Kluber is more dominant than Happ. He allows close to the same amount of runs as Happ and his total value is higher than Happ. If you gave him b7 runs of support per game he'd likely have as good a record as anyone.

Not to mention, you said win loss record is a good indicator of situational pitching. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. Than you cite Felix, who's notoriously shafted on run support. Is he and his record not indicative of his ability to situationally pitch?
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:43 PM   #6462
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I brought up Felix to say I get where you're coming from and I understand it's not the be all and end all of pitching.

However, I do believe a win/loss record is indicative of good pitching. It's not the only indicator but certainly an indicator.

For instance, Happ pitched a game in Colorado, it started WAY late because of a rain delay, they were in Colorado and everything was just off. It became evident early that it was going to be a sloppy game with lots of runs scored. Cy Young himself could have pitched that game and gotten hit given the circumstances. Happ pitched 5 innings, gave up 5 runs and won the game because the Jays smashed the other pitcher. I thought Happ did really well given the circumstances of the start, he kept his team in the game against a hard fucking line up in shitty conditions in a bang box and he was better than the other guy.

Jack Morris was known for his situational pitching. If he was staked to a nice lead, he would just pitch strikes and give up scratch runs so he'd have a bit of a higher ERA but he'd still win 20 games... and hell the guy pitched 10 fucking innings in a world series game 7.

I think if you have a pitcher who by the end of his career has an astronomical win/loss record, (300 wins to maybe 150 losses or whatever) you can bet your bottom dollar he a) has won a Cy Young or 2 and b) is a hall of famer.

That doesn't mean a player who doesn't get as much run support as another guy because he played for lots of shitty offensive teams isn't better (As I have mentioned King Felix), but from what I've seen, good pitchers win ball games.
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Old 07-13-2016, 08:45 PM   #6463
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And Drebin's Jason Marquis counter argument is just horrendous. I resent it not being brought forward as terrible
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:10 PM   #6464
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A good indicator is something you can objectively apply across the board for any pitcher. Win-loss record is not objective nor unbias. Because it's a context dependant stat.

I can objectively tell you one pitcher induces more strikeouts, limits more walks and homeruns than another. I can tell you one pitcher is better than another at run prevention. Win-loss record will not inducate any of that. It just tells you if a starter went 5 and his team held or gained a lead prior to him exiting the game. It tells you nothing about his overall production. Which is why it's a poor indicator of anything.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:10 PM   #6465
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Pitchers don't win, Dale. They just pitch. Teams win.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:22 PM   #6466
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Meh, winners win my friend. I'll agree to disagree. Even Felix Hernandez is 50 games or so over .500 for his career. Yeah there's going to be situations such as Cliff Lee's that you brought up where guys' teams don't hit well, but more often than not, you pitch well, you win more games than you lose.

To your argument and my disdain for being accused of blatant homer-ism, if Chris Tilman was chosen over Happ I wouldn't take issue with it. Kluber got the nod because of prior reputation in my opinion. He was chosen over Sanchez as well which is pretty silly in itself.
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Old 07-13-2016, 09:58 PM   #6467
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Reputation had something to do with it. But not the only thing. He's as good or better than Happ.

Nah. Teams win.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:05 PM   #6468
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Kluber has a 2.95 FIP, 6th lowest in the league. Happ's is a 4.05, higher than his ERA.

Basically suggests that Kluber has been victimized by a lot of bad luck and Happ has been blessed with great fielding behind him, especially Pillar.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:15 PM   #6469
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Great point by Vito.

Btw, where'd Gorgeous Dale Newstead go?
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:22 PM   #6470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
And Drebin's Jason Marquis counter argument is just horrendous. I resent it not being brought forward as terrible
I dunno, dude. Marquis had 80 wins in 6 seasons. That's all decade team numbers right there. He was obviously really good. Look at Tha winz!

Vintage 2004 Shawn Estes.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:23 PM   #6471
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I've missed you, Frank.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:31 PM   #6472
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I was out for a run. I'm going to find you and make sweet love to both of you, Damian and Frank. Sweet, hateful love.

The same argument was made against Estrada, Vito. And here we have Estrada, with another great season. And I'm not going to disagree with good fielding helping big time. Jays have excellent fielding all over the place. Donaldson has been amazing at third base. Encarnacion and Smoak are stellar at first, and the middle infield really does a nice job.

Only real clunker sometimes is Saunders.

But I'm sorry, you can't blame a guy for having a good defence, surely that's going to factor into the way someone pitches. You're more likely to be aggressive and attack the hitter if you know your defence is gonna make plays.


I CAN DO THIS ALL NIGHT BOYS. WOOOOOOOO!
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:32 PM   #6473
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I'm just loving a good back and forth. Old school vs. New.

BASEBALL!!
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:35 PM   #6474
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You know who was great at attacking hitters? 2003 Ramon Ortiz. Dat was a guy who knew how to win.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:37 PM   #6475
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I don't think you blame them. But you surely shouldn't, in turn, give them more credit than another guy who isn't as lucky with his supporting cast. Which is why things that are team dependant are silly things to use when trying to figure out who's better and why.

What's with the Dastardly gimmick btw?
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:40 PM   #6476
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lol honestly I just wanted change my name and it stems from a dumb inside joke about alliteration. I'll always be gorgeous tho.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:44 PM   #6477
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Time catches us all
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:44 PM   #6478
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You know who was a dastardly good winner? Kirk Rueter. 7 straight seasons of double digit wins. That's ace material right there.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:46 PM   #6479
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I will likely be able to look up those stats and explain to you why you're being a knob and you damned well know it, Frank.
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Old 07-13-2016, 10:49 PM   #6480
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And also, I generally use ERA as my top indicator. Wins/losses is one of the many things I take into account.
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