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Old 04-01-2016, 01:01 PM   #1
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DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?
DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?

At Survivor Series, they play out Bret's idea of a DQ finish. DX does something stupid to Bret which causes Bret to be distracted and argue with the ref. HBK then nails Bret with Sweet Chin Music (reminiscent of their match at Wrestlemania 12), but then the Hart Foundation get involved causing the DQ finish.


The next night on RAW, Bret gives a farewell speech, but tells the WWE Universe that he lied to them, and intends to take the belt with him to "the other show."


Undertaker's music hits and Taker challenges Bret to one final match later on RAW. Taker then defeats Bret clean for the pin.


After Taker wins, you then go back to what originally happened where Shawn defeats Taker at the next PPV due to Kane interference. Things then resume as originally as planned.


Why couldn't the WWE have just done this?
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:10 PM   #2
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-Undertaker is a guy that Bret respected, and would have done the job to.


-Shawn would have still looked 'strong' against Bret due to the Hart Foundation having to interfere to cause the DQ.


One problem I have against the argument of, "Well - the whole point of Shawn going CLEANLY over Bret is that it makes Shawn look more credible for his inevitable collision with Austin," is that Shawn got absolutely man-handled by Undertaker at Bad Blood (before Kane interfered), and so "making Shawn look like a boss" was kind of in vain anyways.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:17 PM   #3
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Bret was the guy leaving the territory. Least he could do is put over the guy WWE asked him to on the date they requested. Nash didn't bellyache about putting over Taker is him home country. He also didn't whine about putting over Shawn also in his home country. It also didn't prevent him from getting over in WCW. Bret was selfish.

I don't see how some convoluted angle on RAW would do any good. As it worked out Bret being selfish was the best thing that ever happened to WWE. Some may call it karma.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:44 PM   #4
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Bret was the guy leaving the territory. Least he could do is put over the guy WWE asked him to on the date they requested. Nash didn't bellyache about putting over Taker is him home country. He also didn't whine about putting over Shawn also in his home country. It also didn't prevent him from getting over in WCW. Bret was selfish.

I don't see how some convoluted angle on RAW would do any good. As it worked out Bret being selfish was the best thing that ever happened to WWE. Some may call it karma.


Oh don't get me wrong - I largely agree with you on Bret. Bret, in many respects, was as much a pain in the ass as HBK even if Bret had more noble intentions much of the time.


However - given the personal relationship between Bret and Vince, I just think the ugliness could have been averted.


1) Legally, Bret would not have been able to show up with the WWF title on WCW anyways.


2) The whole idea of wanting to make Shawn look 'strong' via clean win over Bret, was completely negated by the fact that Undertaker manhandled him at the next PPV anyways.


The only way Shawn cleanly defeating Bret would have made sense, was if Shawn defeated Undertaker in a convincing way as well, but this obviously didn't occur. Hence - my suggestion for the DQ finish where you have a similar ending to Wrestlemania 12, but with the Hart Foundation interfering.


On RAW the next night, Bret threatens to leave the WWE but then Undertaker (a.k.a. "The Conscience of the WWE" challenges Bret). Bret then admits that he's always respected the Undertaker and that Bret never backs down from a fight, and so he accepts the challenge.


Voila - Taker defeats Bret, and then jobs to HBK at the next PPV as par the course.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:04 PM   #5
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Oh don't get me wrong - I largely agree with you on Bret. Bret, in many respects, was as much a pain in the ass as HBK even if Bret had more noble intentions much of the time.


However - given the personal relationship between Bret and Vince, I just think the ugliness could have been averted.


1) Legally, Bret would not have been able to show up with the WWF title on WCW anyways.


2) The whole idea of wanting to make Shawn look 'strong' via clean win over Bret, was completely negated by the fact that Undertaker manhandled him at the next PPV anyways.


The only way Shawn cleanly defeating Bret would have made sense, was if Shawn defeated Undertaker in a convincing way as well, but this obviously didn't occur. Hence - my suggestion for the DQ finish where you have a similar ending to Wrestlemania 12, but with the Hart Foundation interfering.


On RAW the next night, Bret threatens to leave the WWE but then Undertaker (a.k.a. "The Conscience of the WWE" challenges Bret). Bret then admits that he's always respected the Undertaker and that Bret never backs down from a fight, and so he accepts the challenge.


Voila - Taker defeats Bret, and then jobs to HBK at the next PPV as par the course.
The issue isn't would Bret go off to WCW without doing the favors. It's would Bischoff open Nitro with "I just signed their world champion, he's coming here Dec xx and this is yet another example of why WCW is superior"

At that point it doesn't matter what Bret does, the cat is out of the bag, and WWF title would look like a joke.

To make an angle of Bret leaving would make any subsequent match seem phony.

The issue to me was always its reasonable for WWE to expect Bret to drop the strap to the guy and on the date they wanted.

I've also heard interviews from people who claim Bret balked at several scenarios where he would drop the title.
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Old 11-09-2017, 09:14 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Bret was the guy leaving the territory. Least he could do is put over the guy WWE asked him to on the date they requested. Nash didn't bellyache about putting over Taker is him home country. He also didn't whine about putting over Shawn also in his home country. It also didn't prevent him from getting over in WCW. Bret was selfish.

I don't see how some convoluted angle on RAW would do any good. As it worked out Bret being selfish was the best thing that ever happened to WWE. Some may call it karma.
Nash did say "no" to putting over Warrior though.
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:00 PM   #7
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Nash did say "no" to putting over Warrior though.
He said if he can get a fall on me, good for him.

But yes, you're right. Nash had no trouble putting over the top guys he was competing with for the top spot. He put over Taker clean and made Shawn look like a boss. It would the equivalent of Bret putting over Austin and HBK. I don't think Bret wanted to do that. He wanted to be protected on the way out.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:24 PM   #8
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Unless I'm mistaken, his contract literally ended the day of the PPV. Bret suggested dropping the title to someone the next night on raw, but vince and co. shot it down because despite Bret's long tenure with the company, it was the monday night war era and they didn't want to risk an alundra blaze repeat with their world title.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:29 PM   #9
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I think his contract expired just after the PPV.

But yeah the issue came down to Bret had "reasonable creative control" in how he was booked and WWE didn't want it to get out further that Bret was going to WCW. And yeah they were worried either Bret would leave with the belt or Eric would announce on Nitro that he signed the current WWF Champion.

It amazes me that anyone defends Bret.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:36 PM   #10
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The only leverage that Bret really has in the argument, is that Shawn was the biggest dickhead of a champion there ever was. A wrestler is supposed to job to the next guy on the way out, but in this case, the next guy had been spitting in the face of tradition and how a champion is supposed to conduct himself since he made it to the main event.

That's why I've seen and read about old school guys backing Bret here and there.

Not saying I am on Bret's side, as he seems to be not far off from where hbk was on the prick scale, but I can understand someone sympathizing with him.
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Old 04-01-2016, 02:55 PM   #11
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I used to see Brets side too, then you start digging into how big of a politician Bret was and is hard to sympathize with him on his opinion about Shawn.

Shawn was someone who believed in his own abilities and thought he was more talented than his peers. Bret saw his as a threat and vice versa so they clashed. Make no mistake though, Bret was just as big of a prick.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:07 PM   #12
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For the longest of time, I always thought Bret's contract expired at the end of the night (midnight). Therefore, he would technically not be obligated to attend the show the following day. However, in recent years it's been made known that Bret's contract actually expired almost a month later. In that case, he legit could have done anything on Raw and was still under contract. This is where the murky water is hard to tread through:

Was there an agreement made between Vince & Bret that the Montreal match no matter what would be his final appearance with the company before the idea of Bret dropping to Shawn became pitched? This would be a great question to get an answer to.

Bret has stated that he fulfilled all his required dates in the contract and didn't have to show up anywhere after & including that match. I wonder if Vince's big hang up was not the Bret/Shawn issue, but more of the Bret/Vince/Eric issue. I have a feeling that even if Bret said that he would do ANYTHING with the belt on Raw that Vince asked, Vince did not trust that Eric didn't shelve him 100 million or something to ditch Raw and go to Nitro instead. This would be a logical reason because Bret fulfilled his WWF responsibilities of his contract already there for it would be like a CM Punk walk out, minus the no-compete clause that didn't exist back then.

For the record, I do not think Bret would have shown up on Nitro with the belt if Vince agreed to let Bret retain at SS and drop it the following night. I truly believe Bret in that he felt shafted by Shawn as a friend & colleague at the time and that is the only reason why he refused to do the job at SS.

Anything, even tar & feathering Bret's character in the ring, the following night on Raw would have been better than what actually happened at SS.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:02 PM   #13
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so tired of hearing anything about Montreal screwjob... such an overblown event
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:06 PM   #14
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As I understand it, bret's creative control clause was only for 30 days prior to his contract expiring. If that was true, the bad blood ppv was on the 5th of October and I feel Bret should have dropped the title there. Vader wasn't massive over but would have been a believable transition champ for a month to get the belt back to shawn.

I could never understand vince's mindset of having one of your top stars go to competition with any kind of steam. I don't even know why they put the title on Bret at summerslam that year
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:21 PM   #15
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Dropping the title to Taker sounds like a good idea but feels like HBK and co would still have tried similar shenanigans for the Montreal match. Doesn't seem HBK would be ok with Bret getting the last laugh feud-wise considering the bad blood between the two.

In regards to contract status, doubt Bret would have pulled a fast one on the WWF considering the month gap between his departure and official WCW start. Since he was open about dropping the title post-ppv, likely had no problem with adding an extra date or two to resolve the title issue.
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:27 PM   #16
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Bret's contract did NOT end at Montreal. He was still under contract for a few more weeks.

this is why he didnt appear the next night on Nitro. He was still under contract with WWF
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Old 04-01-2016, 04:02 PM   #17
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Bret refused to job to non-Shawn guys in the month between Bad Blood and Survivor Series, including Shamrock, Vader, and, I believe Foley. Dude did it to himself as far as I'm concerned. His stubborness was his undoing.
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Old 04-01-2016, 08:21 PM   #18
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Old 04-02-2016, 01:19 AM   #19
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He showed up at Montreal, he would have shown up at Raw. There was no reason for him to burn bridges especially since he did planon coming back to wwf after 3 years. He mentions so to vince and also on Legends of Wrestling show.

In any event, there was no legal way he could appear on WCW tv otherwise Bischoff would have charted a plane and had bret flown to Nitro the very next night.
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
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DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?

At Survivor Series, they play out Bret's idea of a DQ finish. DX does something stupid to Bret which causes Bret to be distracted and argue with the ref. HBK then nails Bret with Sweet Chin Music (reminiscent of their match at Wrestlemania 12), but then the Hart Foundation get involved causing the DQ finish.


The next night on RAW, Bret gives a farewell speech, but tells the WWE Universe that he lied to them, and intends to take the belt with him to "the other show."


Undertaker's music hits and Taker challenges Bret to one final match later on RAW. Taker then defeats Bret clean for the pin.


After Taker wins, you then go back to what originally happened where Shawn defeats Taker at the next PPV due to Kane interference. Things then resume as originally as planned.


Why couldn't the WWE have just done this?

It wouldn't have created enough drama and we would not be talking about it right now. The screwjob is a beloved part of wrestling.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:20 PM   #21
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I don't think that Bret would have dropped the WWF Title to The UnderTaker the night after Survivor Series, where Raw was held at the current Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata, Ontario(suburban outskirt of Ottawa, Ontario).

The earliest I'dve seen Bret drop the title to a U.S. born talent would have been when Raw was held in Fayetteville, North Carolina's Cumberland Civic Center on Nov. 24, 1997.

For the record, Bret was under contract to WWE then until Nov. 30, 1997, where afterwards, he was free to leave for WCW.

And Bret dropping the title in North Carolina instead of Montreal may have saved a lot of bullshit happening afterwards, including Owen Hart's death.
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Old 04-06-2016, 07:43 AM   #22
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I don't think that Bret would have dropped the WWF Title to The UnderTaker the night after Survivor Series, where Raw was held at the current Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata, Ontario(suburban outskirt of Ottawa, Ontario).
Bret had zero issue with dropping the belt in Canada. He just had an issue in dropping it to Shawn Michaels.

The biggest arguments for "Bret should job to HBK' were......

1) Time honoured tradition to job before you leave
2) Contract expiration + possibly showing up on WCW with the title
3) Making HBK look as strong as possible since he was going to be the #1 heel moving forward (to put over Austin at Mania).

However - both points were nullified.

1) Bret had reasonable creative control over his character
2) Legality would have prevented Bret from showing up in WCW with the WWF title.
3) HBK got manhandled by Undertaker in the next PPV before Kane interfered, and so the whole idea of making HBK look strong was moot anyways.

Yes - the screwjob was the best thing that could have ever happened to the WWE......from a business standpoint, but taking into account interpersonal relationships, morality, integrity, etc., Bret jobbing to Undertaker the next night on RAW was arguably the best course of action.
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:08 PM   #23
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3) HBK got manhandled by Undertaker in the next PPV before Kane interfered, and so the whole idea of making HBK look strong was miot.
October comes before novemeber. Bad blood happened before survivor series. Shawn wrestled shamrock after bret, not taker
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:51 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ronic View Post
And Bret dropping the title in North Carolina instead of Montreal may have saved a lot of bullshit happening afterwards, including Owen Hart's death.
I know your shitty gimmick is essentially "being Don Cherry", but lol that's a bit of a stretch
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Old 11-26-2017, 04:22 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Ronic View Post
I don't think that Bret would have dropped the WWF Title to The UnderTaker the night after Survivor Series, where Raw was held at the current Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata, Ontario(suburban outskirt of Ottawa, Ontario).

The earliest I'dve seen Bret drop the title to a U.S. born talent would have been when Raw was held in Fayetteville, North Carolina's Cumberland Civic Center on Nov. 24, 1997.

For the record, Bret was under contract to WWE then until Nov. 30, 1997, where afterwards, he was free to leave for WCW.

And Bret dropping the title in North Carolina instead of Montreal may have saved a lot of bullshit happening afterwards, including Owen Hart's death.
Wait, how? He fucking fell from the rafters, I don't see a connection.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sixx View Post
Wait, how? He fucking fell from the rafters, I don't see a connection.
Vince wouldn't have cut Owen's cord which sent him crashing to his death if he didn't feel the need for revenge against Bret for leaving without dropping the belt clean.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Sixx View Post
Wait, how? He fucking fell from the rafters, I don't see a connection.
I'm guessing the inferrence is that the angle with Jeff Jarret and he splitting time under the Blue Blazer mask wouldn't have happened had Bret waited or somesuch. No angle, no idea for the stunt. No stunt, no fall. No fall, no death.

I don't see the connection either, as it wasn't exactly like Owen was being punished for Bret leaving or something. Wasn't exactly a HHH/Curtain Call thing. That would be a whole different bear if it were.
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:34 PM   #28
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I don't know much, but I do know this. Universal health care works great in Canada, Ted Cruz is a Canadian citizen, and Bret Hart should have been fired months before. That kind of insubordination, I would not tolerate it. No I wouldn't.

Bret Hart was a loser and I'm glad Goldberg ended his career. Wish he'd end Ted Cruz the same way, but you know he won't because he's a Jew and Jews seem to love Ted Cruz.
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:48 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by realDonaldTrump View Post
I don't know much, but I do know this. Universal health care works great in Canada, Ted Cruz is a Canadian citizen, and Bret Hart should have been fired months before. That kind of insubordination, I would not tolerate it. No I wouldn't.

Bret Hart was a loser and I'm glad Goldberg ended his career. Wish he'd end Ted Cruz the same way, but you know he won't because he's a Jew and Jews seem to love Ted Cruz.
And I know that ol' Donnie Trump loves to get fucked in the ass by a huge Mexican while playing 'La Cucaracha' off some bongo drums attached to Melina's fat ass. XD
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:41 PM   #30
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And I know that ol' Donnie Trump loves to get fucked in the ass by a huge Mexican while playing 'La Cucaracha' off some bongo drums attached to Melina's fat ass. XD
Very sad that you tried to attack my wife and couldn't even spell her name right. Newsflash: Nobody cares what you know, what you think you know, or whether you live or die. You're a flea and I'm the alpha-dog. My normal size hands have seen the inside of more super-models than you've taken showers.

When I'm President you're going to Mexico.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:36 PM   #31
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I basically think it all comes down to Bret & Shawn's relationship. He stated at the time he would've jobbed to anyone ELSE (he said something along the lines of telling Vince "Hell, I'll job to Lombardi in the Garden, I just don't wanna lose to Shawn") as he felt that Shawn had slighted him and refused to put him over in the past and was generally unprofessional. To be fair, Bret was stubborn, but Shawn was an all around pain in the ass.
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Old 04-06-2016, 05:45 PM   #32
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I basically think it all comes down to Bret & Shawn's relationship. He stated at the time he would've jobbed to anyone ELSE (he said something along the lines of telling Vince "Hell, I'll job to Lombardi in the Garden, I just don't wanna lose to Shawn") as he felt that Shawn had slighted him and refused to put him over in the past and was generally unprofessional. To be fair, Bret was stubborn, but Shawn was an all around pain in the ass.
Even Kevin Nash says HBK was a prick, thats just how it is in an environment that is dog eat dog.

To me thats not a good enough excuse to refuse to do business. If Vince had said I want you to lose to Shawn in a 30 second match, I would say he has a point, but I'm sure that wasnt the plan.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:02 PM   #33
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Even Kevin Nash says HBK was a prick, thats just how it is in an environment that is dog eat dog.

To me thats not a good enough excuse to refuse to do business. If Vince had said I want you to lose to Shawn in a 30 second match, I would say he has a point, but I'm sure that wasnt the plan.
I think they should have had a Loser Leaves Canada match. Would have been phenomenal to see Bret Hart deported from his own country.

Hmm...wonder if we can send Ted Cruz back to Canada in a similar fashion. I'll talk with my lawyers.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:21 PM   #34
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I think they should have had a Loser Leaves Canada match. Would have been phenomenal to see Bret Hart deported from his own country.

Hmm...wonder if we can send Ted Cruz back to Canada in a similar fashion. I'll talk with my lawyers.
I know he's a liar and all but i would prefer him over our current prime minister
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:59 PM   #35
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That Prime Minister of yours has a pretty mouth. I wouldn't kick Justine out of my bed.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:32 PM   #36
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That Prime Minister of yours has a pretty mouth. I wouldn't kick Justine out of my bed.
Nice hair doe
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:48 PM   #37
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The value of Bret in Canada is really really dumb. Shows a lack of understanding of the market. Typical junk you read from the pro Bret crowd.

This market didn't live and die with Bret. Bret left and Canada was still a strong market for WWE without Bret. He was forgotten in a hurry. On the flip side WCW ran what, three or four shows in Canada post getting Bret? Even when WWE was struggling against WCW on cable in the States, they remained #1 on TV in Canada (by a lot).

Bret probably came out of the event with more steam in Canada than he had going in, yet WCW didn't bother to do much in the way of business in Canada. So I guess whatever major Canadian expansion that was planned and that Bret was worried about hurting by doing the favours ONE TIME, wasn't really set in stone. And oh yeah Bret had a guaranteed contact anyway.

No doubt Vince should have forced Bret to drop the strap before telling him to go to WCW, but Bret acted as selfishly as anyone in the history of the business. That's a slap in the face to all the guys who put him over along his way to the top, Shawn included. But I guess we're supposed to forget Shawn ever put him over.

The best part of this story is that in the end Bret's selfishness forced Vince's hand, which created the character that carried the company to unprecedented heights and Bret fizzled when he didn't have Vince protecting his limitations.
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post

The best part of this story is that in the end Bret's selfishness forced Vince's hand, which created the character that carried the company to unprecedented heights and Bret fizzled when he didn't have Vince protecting his limitations.
This is so savagely spot on and bret probably has never gotten past they did so much better business without him
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:23 PM   #39
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This is so savagely spot on and bret probably has never gotten past they did so much better business without him
Actually, Bret has gone on record stating that he knew Vince was smart/genius enough to take the 'screw job' event and do great business from that (source - Off The Record - Michael Landsberg - 2003).

Bret is and was far more bitter at how poorly WCW used him, and blames Bischoff and Hogan. Bret has also forgiven both Shawn and Vince for the screw job and pretty much holds Hunter responsible for engineering Montreal (if you listen to the sit-down interview with JR/Bret/Shawn, it's revealed that Triple H was the first one to mention the screw job idea outloud.....although all of Vince, Shawn, and HHH were thinking it). Since that sit-down interview, Bret has bashed Triple H in interviews on a few occasions, just as he's done to Hogan and Bischoff.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:38 PM   #40
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The value of Bret in Canada is really really dumb. Shows a lack of understanding of the market. Typical junk you read from the pro Bret crowd.

This market didn't live and die with Bret. Bret left and Canada was still a strong market for WWE without Bret. He was forgotten in a hurry. On the flip side WCW ran what, three or four shows in Canada post getting Bret? Even when WWE was struggling against WCW on cable in the States, they remained #1 on TV in Canada (by a lot).
And this response shows a complete lack of understanding of the most common sense principle of all - in 1997, they didn't know what 1998 was going to reveal. That's the entire fucking point.

Bret perceived losing in Canada would harm his value long term. Vince perceived that Bischoff announcing the WWF Champ was leaving for WCW would have killed his company. They were both probably wrong, but since neither of them are clairvoyant, surprisingly, they didn't know that.

At the time WWF is getting its ass kicked in US, and Bret was very clearly the biggest Canadian draw. Wanna know how many shows WCW ran in Canada in 1998 after it landed Bret? Zero. Did they know the WWF would get the super media coverage of Tyson in November that would help turn things around? No, they did not.

This is a prisoner of the moment situation on both sides, and in your chest out stupidity you demonstrate that not only do you not comprehend what this was really about, but makes me wonder if you were actually watching in 1997 at all to understand the tenor of the times. Vince was terrified of the way his company would look and overreacted, and ended up making it a far bigger deal, and Bret was concerned he'd lose his golden ticket for big contracts going forward, the thing that allowed him to negotiate such a huge number in the first place.

The entire situation was guys worrying about the unknown. What would happen if it went the other way and the possibilities. And your explanation for why thats stupid is by calling on everything they didnt know at the time.

Please, never be a lawyer.
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