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Old 10-13-2017, 10:02 AM   #81
DAMN iNATOR
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I mean, who would pay attention to Raw? I HAVE STANDARDS
Right? I'd rather pay attention to that high-pitched sound that was played at American embassies in Cuba for 3 hours!
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:03 PM   #82
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More power to the dude for calling his own shots, but given how good he was and how good the company clearly knows he is, I'm not necessarily sure he'll be pushed harder or better than he is now.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:38 PM   #83
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By the way, how surreal is this 205 Live thing? Who would have thought that Vince McMahon would like a tournament so much he'd think "That has to be a thing" and he's hire all these small guys and try to push them for a year?

I enjoyed a lot of the CWC, but was it even that good. I'm not bitching about it, but as good as it was, does it warrant the "cruiserweights are hot!" ongoing response that Vince has been going with. At this stage, who even thinks about it in association with the division? I'm so fucking tired so I'm not explaining myself correctly, but it's just surreal that Vince is trying so hard to push little guys because there was this good tournament that was watched by maybe 1 million people or whatever.
Yes. The Cruiserweight Classic was that good. Way better than Mae Young, anyway.
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:25 PM   #84
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CWC was the best thing WWE had done since Wrestlemania 30's main event. It was that good.
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Old 10-15-2017, 06:55 PM   #85
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But can you imagine Vince thinking that? I mean, he's taken away all the stakes that made it interesting anyway. And now he's like "Cruiserweights! Cruiserweights are the money!" It's just really weird he'd take a critically well-received piece of business like the CWC and then sports entertainment it up on the main roster for a year with guys he clearly thinks are geeks.

At this point, I think Vince is just being stubborn. But it's just weird that he would get so invested in this dead end.
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Old 10-15-2017, 06:59 PM   #86
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It's like if there was a really great independent movie, and Vince was a producer, and he turned this independent movie into a highly publicized Hollywood remake and everyone was like "Why?" and he kept pushing through, even though every indicator was that it was horrible. It bombs, so then he makes a sequel.

Like, I admire the dude's determination, but it's so weird this is the hill he's choosing to die on.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:33 PM   #87
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CWC was really great.

Biggest difference between the CWC and 205 Live was Vince having no hands on role with the tournament and completely having his hands all over the division even though he's terrible with lucha/cruiser style wrestling.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:38 PM   #88
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To clarify: My point is not that the CWC was not great. I'm just confused as to why Vince thinks it was so great as to adapt it into a weekly show. "You know what we need! Velocity!"

Vince is an odd man.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:41 PM   #89
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Personally, I think stuff like the CWC is what they should be putting on TV. Not in place of RAW or SmackDown or anything, but as limited run television that comes with a definite commitment. I think there are people floating around who might not be able to commit to three hours of RAW every week, and don't care to make that ongoing investment, but if they hear about a really good wrestling tournament that is going to end at some point, they might pop in.

Air that shit on Thursdays and try to launch a star from it. TJ Perkins came off really well on that. If you now know that he's going to be on RAW every Monday, people can choose whether or not they want to follow him further.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:48 PM   #90
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That's cool. I'm just saying that the CWC was fucking dope, and I'll take every opportunity I can to repeat that. Doesn't matter how old you are. If you saw it as a fan of wrestling at all, you'd be hard pressed to not see something special in it.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:48 PM   #91
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I also think the WWE is leaving money on the table when it comes to PPV and the NXT Takeovers. The Royal Rumble and WrestleMania are still shows that even I would consider buying if they were on PPV, whereas I am not getting the Network until my entire perception of the company changes. I'll vote for a show, but I am not voting for the entire product, if that makes sense.

For the Takeovers, I think they should do that thing that some bands and comedians do, where they say "Look, we'll give it to you for $5 -- we know money is tight -- but if you do really love the NXT product, please pay more so we can pay the talent better, etc.," and they cap it at $80 or whatever. I would rather pay $20 for a product I want to support and hopefully one day influence change, than it just being part of a package deal with the shitty WWE stuff, even though I technically get it for free. If I'm cold on NXT, I would willingly part with $5 to watch a Takeover, because I'm sure I will see at least one good match and enjoy the presentation.

How many people do watch the Takeovers. How well are they received? I'm sure the people who watch those shows would be fine spending a bit of money on them. Some are obviously tight with money and they would just pay the $5, but others in a better situation would do what I did and pay more to support their favorite "artists," so to speak.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:51 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
To clarify: My point is not that the CWC was not great. I'm just confused as to why Vince thinks it was so great as to adapt it into a weekly show. "You know what we need! Velocity!"

Vince is an odd man.
Think that was always the plan with these tournaments. Only reason it hasn't happened with the UK guys yet is due to costs and women's tournament has the benefit of using NXT as a placeholder for the near future.

Triple H had an interview after the tournament detailing his or WWE's roadmap for the cruiser division and Vince pretty much failed to follow any of it. Instead Vince did a really watered down version of lucha/cruiser wrestling done in the WWE style.
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Old 10-15-2017, 07:59 PM   #93
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Execution was poor. Honestly, I'm not even sure the Triple H idea was the right way to take it. Just let good things be good. The CWC boosted the value of tournaments -- it's why they started this Mae Young thing and could probably do something with the Dusty Classic (but it'll probably just be in NXT canon).

They could have done a CWC 2017, which they couldn't have done with the division up and going. TJ Perkins should have been focused on as a star, probably with Gran Metalik as his rival. I don't know if you use him on NXT or straight to RAW and SmackDown right away, but they got a bit "let's feature everybody" instead of telling those stories later.

That being said, I do think the women should have their own show. I think they could use the depth and hierarchy. You need a female mid-card to have female main eventers, I think. Everyone is on equal footing at the moment.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:10 AM   #94
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For me, I still think along the lines of WWE liking to hire people who make a buzz elsewhere so that they can no longer make that buzz for anything even close to competition. They don't really have any true long-term plans for many of them, but that is attention going to wrestling that isn't controlled by Vince. I feel the CWC was part of that thinking. Nobody else can build a cruiserweight division and stars within it if WWE has a majority of people making themselves synonymous with said style. Same for Women's Revolution/Mae Young Classic poaching any halfway decent human equipped with a uterus from all over the place, effectively hamstringing anyone else trying to make it a thing.
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:24 AM   #95
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I think that's part of it. I also think that Triple H wants to get his developmental over, so he pushes for guys that smarks love so that he looks good. I mean, who has NXT trained that is really good? A few guys have passed through there, and they did put some good presentation touches on some guys, but do you think Sami Zayn really learnt how to work in Billy Gunn's class? Or promo? The only thing Billy really could have helped him is banned there anyway.

Keep in mind that by this point in time, OVW had already seen John Cena, Batista, Randy Orton and Brock Lesnar crowned as World Champions. I guess you can kind of give NXT Bray Wyatt and Roman Reigns. But everyone else was really somebody before FCW got them.

The guys getting signed and pushed through are the same guys that Triple H would have had stand there and look like goofs while he Pedigree'd them for funsies. I'm not sure how much of his "change" is genuine and how much is ego-driven and for vanity reasons. I mean, if it drives him to be better at generating talent, it's not necessarily a bad thing -- but I just find the WWE's "indy kick" to be interesting.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:21 AM   #96
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I think that's part of it. I also think that Triple H wants to get his developmental over, so he pushes for guys that smarks love so that he looks good. I mean, who has NXT trained that is really good? A few guys have passed through there, and they did put some good presentation touches on some guys, but do you think Sami Zayn really learnt how to work in Billy Gunn's class? Or promo? The only thing Billy really could have helped him is banned there anyway.

Keep in mind that by this point in time, OVW had already seen John Cena, Batista, Randy Orton and Brock Lesnar crowned as World Champions. I guess you can kind of give NXT Bray Wyatt and Roman Reigns. But everyone else was really somebody before FCW got them.

The guys getting signed and pushed through are the same guys that Triple H would have had stand there and look like goofs while he Pedigree'd them for funsies. I'm not sure how much of his "change" is genuine and how much is ego-driven and for vanity reasons. I mean, if it drives him to be better at generating talent, it's not necessarily a bad thing -- but I just find the WWE's "indy kick" to be interesting.
I would contend that getting in peoples way and letting talents find their own footing is the key of a great teacher. Comformity was the old method.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:15 AM   #97
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Would you argue that they are not conforming now? Everyone seems to do the same "WWE style," which has been updated to be a lot more "indy strong style" or whatever you want to call it, but with rest holds thrown in.

I actually do think that a little resistance goes a long way. I think a lot of NXT talent are kind of facing that resistance first when they get to the main roster and realize that they may not be as prepared or as instantly over as they thought they would be.

I agree that the old "stretch 'em out, authoritarian-style" is out-moded (in life; not just in wresting). But I'm not sure if I agree that the WWE has the "key." They've got one of the only doors though.
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:33 AM   #98
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there is more freeedom in the in ring product now than there has been in 20 years
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:01 PM   #99
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In a certain direction I'd agree with you. I think less important guys have a lot more freedom. I think the more important guys probably have equal freedom. I mean, I don't think Austin wrestles differently from Seth Rollins because he wasn't allowed to do what Seth does, haha. But flashier moves from the top aren't taboo anymore, which is an obvious change. I mean, there are two or three guys using the Phoenix Splash now.

I dunno, I wish less shit was given away actually, and that things had a more organic and authentic feel to them. That is me speaking selfishly as a fan.
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:06 PM   #100
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Austin didnt wrestle like Rollins because brawlers make more money


Guys today have their hand tied more where it actually matters though. Promo and character. Its flipped from where it was.
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:39 PM   #101
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Austin was a fantastic technical wrestler. He brawled because of the neck problems.
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dastardly Dale Newstead View Post
Austin was a fantastic technical wrestler. He brawled because of the neck problems.
And to quote Steve Austin "I realized I could make more money with it"
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:41 PM   #103
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Well, exactly. But I'm sure Austin had the freedom to be poor.

Agreed on the promo and character being restrained. I mean, that's common knowledge, sure, but it's pretty incredible Vince has never even just gotten bored and trialed some guys with their own shit. It's like he's got an OCD obsession with things being this stifled way.

Do you think there's anything to his aversion to stars?
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:42 PM   #104
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It's surreal to think that Austin was told to retire in 1997. Imagine if that were today? It's probably a good thing, don't get me wrong. But to think that Bryan's "best years" could actually definitely still be in front of him is crazy.
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:31 PM   #105
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Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Rammsteinmad is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)
And it'll be when he finally snaps and becomes a badass brawling machine.
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:33 PM   #106
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Too short, no one would buy it
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:17 PM   #107
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I bought the last Too Short album thank you very much.

Wait, what?
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:11 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rammsteinmad View Post
And it'll be when he finally snaps and becomes a badass brawling machine.
Was thinking last night that I could see Bryan screwing Brock at Survivor Series and becoming an ally to Jinder Mahal. It's 20 years since Montreal, and if they don't want Bryan wrestling again, they might try to do something weird to change perceptions of him.

Then I thought that was stupid. Then I realized that I don't put anything past them anymore.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:28 PM   #109
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Do we know that Vince was super behind the cruiserweights? I could see it being something HHH was really behind, and vince merely approved it.

Also, I think TJP being the face of it to start out was a mistake. I love his work, and was pleasantly surprised by his victory, but that was all for the niche hardcore audience. The majority of fans watching raw want greay characters more than great wrestling, and unfortunately TJP showef about as much charisma as a can of tuna. Tozawa was more over just by making weird noises. I think Kendrick or gallagher would of been better choices, but instead the division was gimped from the start by putting the title on a guy that did nothing to ispire the mainstream audience to get behind him.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:31 PM   #110
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Probably shouldnt be too hard on TJP though. He was likely given some awful script to read from word for word.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:33 PM   #111
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I hated that TJP won. He put on great matches, but he was super boring. It was a nice story of going from being homeless to winning the tournament, but he had no real character beyond that.

Maybe Vince did get behind that, knowing it wouldn't be great? lol
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:36 PM   #112
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I was super stoked that TJP won, but I'm definitely hardcore niche guy.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:54 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fignuts View Post
Do we know that Vince was super behind the cruiserweights? I could see it being something HHH was really behind, and vince merely approved it.

Also, I think TJP being the face of it to start out was a mistake. I love his work, and was pleasantly surprised by his victory, but that was all for the niche hardcore audience. The majority of fans watching raw want greay characters more than great wrestling, and unfortunately TJP showef about as much charisma as a can of tuna. Tozawa was more over just by making weird noises. I think Kendrick or gallagher would of been better choices, but instead the division was gimped from the start by putting the title on a guy that did nothing to ispire the mainstream audience to get behind him.
In terms of the CWC, that's pretty much how it went. Triple H was really behind the idea and Vince just gave his approval for costs. In terms of 205 Live, sheets have stated several times its been all Vince for hands-on approach and direction.

Biggest mistake with the CWC was having a championship be the grand prize instead of a trophy like with the Mae Young Classic. Could have still done the happy ending to TJP's life story with a trophy and crown a debut champion later with a more popular face star like Cedric Alexander. TJP's reign also came off as only happening because the other guys in the Final Four couldn't appear for the division's debut.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:03 PM   #114
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I liked Perkins in the tournament. I thought his story came off as super-organic and heart-warming. I mean, you weren't getting Ibushi or ZSJ, so it doesn't make sense to put the belt on either one of them. Once it's down to Perkins or Metalik -- fuck, I think Metalik is the better choice, really.

I didn't hate Perkins winning though. I thought he came off as a super-likable babyface. But then he showed up on RAW. The video game stuff and not being able to handle the weird booking did crush him. It was just never going to work that way. They probably should have gone with Perkins, just put him on SmackDown and have Kendrick attack him as a bitter heel that lost his last opportunity as greatness. Bryan's friendship with Kendrick would have added drama. Slowly introduce these personalities and let them get over before you give them a show and their own belt.
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:15 PM   #115
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Perkins and Kendrick on SmackDown; Cedric Alexander to NXT. His story about dropping the weight was really good and he got over. The crowd there would have loved to see him go against Bobby Roode down the line or something. Could have been an NXT Champion or something.

Who else really stood out in the tournament? Rich Swann? He'd have been good for NXT too. Everyone else just sounded really solid. Jack Gallagher is someone I liked right away, but you don't want to saturate things. Perkins, Kendrick, Cedric and Swann were the four I probably would have taken right away. Perkins and Kendrick for the main roster and Cedric and Swann for NXT so some other guys could move up.
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:24 PM   #116
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Update from Sports Illustrated on the causes leading to Neville's departure from the WWE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Observer
Sports Illustrated has an article about Neville’s situation with WWE, with it noting that Neville has been "miserable" since January and that he was unhappy when his match with Austin Aries at WrestleMania was moved to the pre-show and kept off the DVD of the event. Neville was still in the video intro for 205 Live as of last night.
Link to the article: https://www.si.com/wrestling/2017/10...le-bullet-club
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Old 10-18-2017, 09:50 PM   #117
Loose Cannon
I'm all there is
 
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Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)Loose Cannon is having sex with your girlfriend and her slightly more attractive sister (100,000+)
The last run was probably going to be his peak in the company. I never really saw him doing anything higher then that. Even if he won the IC Title down the road, the Cruserweight King gimmick was probably still going to be his best run.

He'll be a hot commodity now on the Indies.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:36 AM   #118
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It probably was, but it probably shouldn't have been.
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Old 10-19-2017, 02:35 AM   #119
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Hot Take: I think I enjoyed Neville's NXT Title run more than any others who have come after
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:25 AM   #120
Noid
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Loved Neville's NXT Title run. Thought it was well booked and even told a good closing story. I felt like it was getting long in the tooth, but like that was on purpose. Sami Zayn's win and "reign" were fine for what they were. I zoned out when Balor got the belt. Joe was kind of a save, but I was disengaged by then.

But yes, Neville is my vote for "Greatest NXT Champion to date." He's also greatest WWE Cruiserweight Champion to date. Dude makes a damn good champion.
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