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Old 11-09-2017, 06:58 AM   #81
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Give me a reason why vince came to ringside if it wasnt a work. Why would he not use the ear pieces in any of the half a dozen people at ringside? If it werent wrestling youd automatically think it was stupid.
I believe this now. Not to mention the fact that he is notorious for protecting his image as a tough guy boss. He no sold two quad tears on live TV and continued an angle. There is no way he would let film out of him stumbling around like a drunk after eating a punch.
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:31 AM   #82
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Thing is though, that's forgetting all the overcompensating they did for years and all the desperate attempts to control the narrative and babyface themselves in the whole thing that failed miserably.





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Old 11-09-2017, 08:56 AM   #83
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Yeah, Vince tried to make himself this sympathetic figure in the wake of it. I mean, you could try to make the case that Vince knew exactly what he was doing and just planting the seeds for the heel run, but that's sort of like saying the whole plan was always Daniel Bryan.

One thing I can be convinced of is that Vince wanted himself out there. That's obviously why he was out there. Maybe to babyface himself as "Pop" standing in front of the store? I don't know why he thought that would work. Maybe he just wanted a massive scoop coming out of it?
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Old 11-09-2017, 10:14 AM   #84
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Bret was the guy leaving the territory. Least he could do is put over the guy WWE asked him to on the date they requested. Nash didn't bellyache about putting over Taker is him home country. He also didn't whine about putting over Shawn also in his home country. It also didn't prevent him from getting over in WCW. Bret was selfish.

I don't see how some convoluted angle on RAW would do any good. As it worked out Bret being selfish was the best thing that ever happened to WWE. Some may call it karma.
Nash did say "no" to putting over Warrior though.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:22 AM   #85
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That's the stupidest logic anyway. Nash had no legal right to refuse anything his employer asked, Bret did. The "Oh, I'd lose in America!" completely misses the dynamic of WCW bidding so high specifically for the Canadian market. Wrestling is a value-driven game. Nash showed his value in America during his title reign in 1995, so what argument, legal or subjective, does he have anyway?





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Old 11-09-2017, 03:06 PM   #86
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I'm a huge Bret Hart mark, but looking back after 20 years and knowing what I know today, Bret should of done that job no questions asked. it was the best thing to do for future. Build HBK to build Austin and it really built Shamrock in between all that as well.

you hear of that planned DQ run in ending that Bret thought was happening. That's the dumbest thing ever to have on that PPV. the feud needed to end there.


as a fan though, the whole screwjob and aftermath was the coolest shit to ever happen as long as I've been watching. what a time to be a fan
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:16 PM   #87
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Loose Cannon,

1. He had creative control in his contract
2. He was an independent contractor, not an employee.
3. Vince was breaching his contract
4. He had 3 more weeks on his WWF contract. This is why he didnt appear on Nitro the next night
5. He said that he would lose to anyone including besides Shawn in Montreal
6. He said he would lose to Shawn if Shawn put him over first because Shawn had disrepected him.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:41 PM   #88
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yes I know the background of it all. I'm not saying Bret didn't have the right to refuse the ending. Vince gave him control and he used his card. that's fine.

but from a business standpoint in a wrestling industry, Bret's leaving and they need to build Shawn for the next guy. they already penciled in Shawn to take the title at Survivor Series long before the PPV. They put the title back on Bret at Summerslam to build to the eventual showdown.

Bret has said numerous times he was ready and willing to put Shawn over and drop the belt, but he heard or caught Shawn saying he would never put Bret over again and that pissed Bret off and that's when he decided he wouldn't lose to Shawn.

so right there it's personal vs business. and that's where this whole got messed up. anyway back to my original point. Bret was done in 3 weeks after SS. and yes they could of had Bret drop the title on Raw or whatever, but Survivor Series was the main show. you got to do it there in my opinion. to me, it doesn't mean as much on Raw.
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:15 PM   #89
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6. He said he would lose to Shawn if Shawn put him over first because Shawn had disrepected him.
If only Bret lived in the era of 50/50 booking.
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:16 PM   #90
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The CyNick to respond to this thread after Survivor Series. Stay tuned!
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:39 PM   #91
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Think in terms of doing the right thing morally, as opposed to "what's best for business."

Think in terms of doing the right thing morally, as opposed to "what's best for business."

I get that many people believe that Bret jobbing cleanly to Shawn that night was the best thing to do from a business perspective, but let's consider a few things:

1) Vince and Bret almost had a father-son type relationship. They were THAT close.

2) Shawn was a complete dick to Bret and acted unprofessionally towards him in the past.

3) Shawn wasn't being built as a badass heel that could destroy everyone anyways (i.e. his 'fluke' win over Taker at Survivor Series due to Kane interference).

Given all of this, I think the best solution here would have been the Bret-Undertaker scenario. Even if Bret wasn't under contract, Bret had enough of a strong moral character to 'give back' to the WWE. HBK didn't need to go over Bret cleanly because he was being booked as a cowardly pussy anyways (i.e. his victory over Taker at Survivor Series).
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:44 PM   #92
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Shawn made it personal. I just annoys me that people ignore those facts. Everyone makes it out to seem like Bret was leaving to WCW the next day - he was not!

People say "oh bret didnt do what his boss asked him to do". If you listen to the audio from Montreal (when bret wears a wire) Vince NEVER suggests dropping the belt. Surely he would have had tried one more time.

If you are contracted to a company - you are not an employee. You have to protect your own business interests. Vince and Bret had a deal where Bret could veto anything he didnt want to do in his last 30 days. He did that. Vince broke the deal.

Shawn's comment about not ever putting Bret over after Bret, despite all the problems, says "hey, I will put your over for the belt. You are safe in the ring with me."
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:48 PM   #93
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Heyman,

I would have booked it as a run in by Austin and taker. This would lead to DX coming down followed by the Hart foundation. The next night on Raw they could do a fatal four way with Bret having Austin in the Sharpshooter, Shawn Super kicks Bret, Shawn gets choke slammed on top of Bret. Taker cover both of them.

This leaves us with "who is the champion ?"
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Old 11-09-2017, 05:07 PM   #94
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Heyman,

I would have booked it as a run in by Austin and taker. This would lead to DX coming down followed by the Hart foundation. The next night on Raw they could do a fatal four way with Bret having Austin in the Sharpshooter, Shawn Super kicks Bret, Shawn gets choke slammed on top of Bret. Taker cover both of them.

This leaves us with "who is the champion ?"
I do like that idea, but I wouldn't have been a fan of Austin losing at that time. Austin was hotter than a mother fucker at the time and so the last thing you'd want is to have him job........even if it was in a fatal 4 way, and especially in such a compromising position (i.e. being in Bret's sharpshooter).
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Old 11-09-2017, 05:13 PM   #95
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morally, Shawn was a huge POS and didn't deserve anything he got around that time. if that was today he probably would of been fired in like 1995

i believe they threw around a bunch of ideas. one was Kenny Shamrock winning the belt from Bret before SS and then losing it to Shawn. I think Bret actually came up with this one
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Old 11-09-2017, 05:37 PM   #96
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I don't blame Bret at all. If he lost at Survivor Series and then snuck over to WCW, he would be heading over as a loser and a coward. Kayfabe wasn't what it was, but it's still an industry that runs largely based off perception. The four-way drop at the next PPV would make sense, but I can imagine why Vince would feel a bit nervous about it.

Working some sort of screwjob angle actually makes perfect sense. I don't believe it was a work, except for on Vince's part setting himself up as a babyface in his own mind or whatever, but it actually does make sense. And this might get "lame" from a lot of people, but doing a phantom title change at a house show makes sense to me too. Bret wins at Montreal and then Shawn magically wins it a house show. Maybe even Bret does a proper job dark? You could go from Undertaker to Shawn, but that would be flipping it around a bit.
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