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Reload this Page DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?
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Old 04-08-2016, 05:12 AM   #41
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Just to clear up a few things throughout the thread:

As mentioned by others. Bret handed in his notice on midnight November 1st. He was obligated to the company for all of November, and had an agreement in place with Vince and Bischoff that he was allowed to stay until December 7th, after his actual deal was over, so that he could lose the WWF title in a four way against Taker, Shamrock and HBK at the DX IYH show. So him losing it at Badd Blood on October 5th wouldn't have crossed anybody's mind at the time. Bret wasn't showing up on Nitro after Survivor Series no matter what.

Bret didn't want to lose in Canada. He can say years later it was a more personal thing with Shawn, and no doubt that's part of it, but the blow by blow account of what happened from Bret and the company was him saying he didn't want to lose in Canada. And to me, that's fine, and here's why.

The anti-Bret attitude is "lose your fake title, what if so-and-so didn't want to lose in America", etc. But I actually think it's a perspective that really misses the obvious. Bret Hart had signed a $2.8 million deal with WCW. He wasn't worth that based on his value to PPVs, ratings or house shows in America relative to other salaries in the business. But to WCW, Bret was the key to breaking into Canada, where they'd never done any business historically. At the time Canada was the second biggest market the WWF had, and it was a huge investment based on Bret's value in Canada. Bret was in a situation where he felt losing to Shawn in Montreal (especially when the match was built mocking Canada) could hurt that value, and he may have been right. Given how much money was on the line on this deal (if WCW had broken through to Canada based on him, long term Bret could get another big contract after this one), I can easily see why he wanted to get out of Canada before he lost the title. And Bret suggested several options for guys to beat him the following week as soon as they were out of Canada if they decided he had to lose before the December PPV, the originally agreed plan.

Vince McMahon is the one who was stupid enough to breach Bret's contract (by not paying his agreed amount, which meant Bret was allowed to negotiate with WCW), and pretty much force him out the company while he was WWF Champion. He was also the one that agreed to the reasonable creative control clause into Bret's deal that let Hart have veto power if he thought what they were asking could damage his value. The people saying "what if I don't lose in America!" are usually guys like JBL who have never been in a position where they have value to an international market and huge potential revenue source as Bret was, so their opinion is worth less than salt grit on a sunny day.

What it really came down to was Vince forced Bret out on November 1st as WWF Champion. The next day, Bischoff went on Nitro and promised a big surprise next week. And Vince shit himself, realising he hadn't thought it through. All of a sudden, the plan that everybody had agreed to (the December PPV) didn't seem so appetising, especially when the internet, hotlines and Canadian newspapers picked up the story two days later. Vince got nervous because he thought WCW announcing they'd signed the WWF champion was damaging, after Vince encouraged the WWF champion to sign with WCW. Right. Clearly, there is some stupidity somewhere.

Legally Vince couldn't force Bret to lose at Survivor Series, and it became a situation where both sides had their own interest in mind and the legal footing where neither of them was in the wrong for wanting what they wanted and standing their ground. But it was Vince's fuck up in the first place. Bret didn't even suggest to beat Shawn, just to get out the match (and let's not pretend this company is above main event DQ finishes on PPV, the very next one had one).

Ultimately both sides are at fault. Bret was being more difficult than he needed to be, probably based on paranoia, realising how much money was at stake, and no doubt there is ego involved (as I imagine there would be when you're champion and being forced out). Vince was just a moron who put himself in an awful position in the first place and did something that was, for his actual intention (get the belt off Bret and not draw attention to the champion leaving) was even dumber. The only saving grace was that this move and his attempt to babyface himself afterwards came off so poorly and was rejected so much he accidentally stumbled upon something great.




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Old 04-08-2016, 11:26 AM   #42
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^^^^


Great post sir.


Much respect.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:30 AM   #43
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He should have been given a farting gimmick in wcw
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:38 PM   #44
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hb2k has a way of saying what I'm thinking in a far better way than I could ever express it. I would just end up calling people doody heads in the 2nd paragraph and start ranting about HHH or something.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:32 PM   #45
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That Prime Minister of yours has a pretty mouth. I wouldn't kick Justine out of my bed.
Nice hair doe
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:48 PM   #46
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The value of Bret in Canada is really really dumb. Shows a lack of understanding of the market. Typical junk you read from the pro Bret crowd.

This market didn't live and die with Bret. Bret left and Canada was still a strong market for WWE without Bret. He was forgotten in a hurry. On the flip side WCW ran what, three or four shows in Canada post getting Bret? Even when WWE was struggling against WCW on cable in the States, they remained #1 on TV in Canada (by a lot).

Bret probably came out of the event with more steam in Canada than he had going in, yet WCW didn't bother to do much in the way of business in Canada. So I guess whatever major Canadian expansion that was planned and that Bret was worried about hurting by doing the favours ONE TIME, wasn't really set in stone. And oh yeah Bret had a guaranteed contact anyway.

No doubt Vince should have forced Bret to drop the strap before telling him to go to WCW, but Bret acted as selfishly as anyone in the history of the business. That's a slap in the face to all the guys who put him over along his way to the top, Shawn included. But I guess we're supposed to forget Shawn ever put him over.

The best part of this story is that in the end Bret's selfishness forced Vince's hand, which created the character that carried the company to unprecedented heights and Bret fizzled when he didn't have Vince protecting his limitations.
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:52 PM   #47
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lol anyone in the history of wrestling. You are retarded.
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:15 PM   #48
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The next PPV was not Undertaker. It was Ken Shamrock for the title. HBK was booked weak against him too though.
Ah, you are right.

Well then, if possible:

-Have Undertaker defeat Bret at Survivor Series. Bret leaves after SS as par the course.

-Undertaker defeats Ken Shamrock in a hard fought contested match which illustrates that Shamrock is close to being on that level. Shawn Michaels defeats Owen Hart.

-Shawn Micheals defeats Undertaker due to Kane interference (as par with what actually happened).
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:17 PM   #49
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The best part of this story is that in the end Bret's selfishness forced Vince's hand, which created the character that carried the company to unprecedented heights and Bret fizzled when he didn't have Vince protecting his limitations.
This is so savagely spot on and bret probably has never gotten past they did so much better business without him
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Old 04-08-2016, 08:23 PM   #50
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This is so savagely spot on and bret probably has never gotten past they did so much better business without him
Actually, Bret has gone on record stating that he knew Vince was smart/genius enough to take the 'screw job' event and do great business from that (source - Off The Record - Michael Landsberg - 2003).

Bret is and was far more bitter at how poorly WCW used him, and blames Bischoff and Hogan. Bret has also forgiven both Shawn and Vince for the screw job and pretty much holds Hunter responsible for engineering Montreal (if you listen to the sit-down interview with JR/Bret/Shawn, it's revealed that Triple H was the first one to mention the screw job idea outloud.....although all of Vince, Shawn, and HHH were thinking it). Since that sit-down interview, Bret has bashed Triple H in interviews on a few occasions, just as he's done to Hogan and Bischoff.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:04 PM   #51
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And also, him not wanting to drop the title is not "the most selfish act ever in the business". Fucking Stan Hansen sent AWA their title back from Japan shattered with a hammer. Wrestling is an inherently selfish business.
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Old 04-08-2016, 11:04 PM   #52
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Shawn Michaels faked injuries to get out of jobbing titles. Let's get serious here.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:39 AM   #53
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Lance storm serious?
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:23 PM   #54
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Michaels was an insecure bitch who was envious of Bret. If you watch Greatest Rivalries Shawn admits his need for validation from Bret. Watch the ending segments where they are walking along the dock..michaels constantly turn to bret as they talk..such an insecure little bitch.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:38 PM   #55
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The value of Bret in Canada is really really dumb. Shows a lack of understanding of the market. Typical junk you read from the pro Bret crowd.

This market didn't live and die with Bret. Bret left and Canada was still a strong market for WWE without Bret. He was forgotten in a hurry. On the flip side WCW ran what, three or four shows in Canada post getting Bret? Even when WWE was struggling against WCW on cable in the States, they remained #1 on TV in Canada (by a lot).
And this response shows a complete lack of understanding of the most common sense principle of all - in 1997, they didn't know what 1998 was going to reveal. That's the entire fucking point.

Bret perceived losing in Canada would harm his value long term. Vince perceived that Bischoff announcing the WWF Champ was leaving for WCW would have killed his company. They were both probably wrong, but since neither of them are clairvoyant, surprisingly, they didn't know that.

At the time WWF is getting its ass kicked in US, and Bret was very clearly the biggest Canadian draw. Wanna know how many shows WCW ran in Canada in 1998 after it landed Bret? Zero. Did they know the WWF would get the super media coverage of Tyson in November that would help turn things around? No, they did not.

This is a prisoner of the moment situation on both sides, and in your chest out stupidity you demonstrate that not only do you not comprehend what this was really about, but makes me wonder if you were actually watching in 1997 at all to understand the tenor of the times. Vince was terrified of the way his company would look and overreacted, and ended up making it a far bigger deal, and Bret was concerned he'd lose his golden ticket for big contracts going forward, the thing that allowed him to negotiate such a huge number in the first place.

The entire situation was guys worrying about the unknown. What would happen if it went the other way and the possibilities. And your explanation for why thats stupid is by calling on everything they didnt know at the time.

Please, never be a lawyer.
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:49 PM   #56
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And this response shows a complete lack of understanding of the most common sense principle of all - in 1997, they didn't know what 1998 was going to reveal. That's the entire fucking point.

The entire situation was guys worrying about the unknown. What would happen if it went the other way and the possibilities. And your explanation for why thats stupid is by calling on everything they didnt know at the time.

Please, never be a lawyer.
On behalf of the profession of lawyers, dear God, do I second this.
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Old 04-09-2016, 04:29 PM   #57
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Haven't a bunch of guys, especially Vince Russo and Kevin Kelly, come out and said that Bret shot down doing jobs to anyone throughout the month of November, not just HBK, but other top guys as well. I think that is the most important issue, not that him and Shawn were enemies, but that he refused to do business with the guys he was even close with like UT, Foley, and Shamrock. If that was the case, even on US soil, I don't see what else Vince could have done, really.
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Old 04-09-2016, 07:10 PM   #58
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Michaels was an insecure bitch who was envious of Bret. If you watch Greatest Rivalries Shawn admits his need for validation from Bret. Watch the ending segments where they are walking along the dock..michaels constantly turn to bret as they talk..such an insecure little bitch.
Which is hilarious because HBK was 10x better than Bret
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:00 PM   #59
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Which is hilarious because HBK was 10x better than Bret
False. Shawn at the time was not better than Bret. You could argue post 2002 he was. Which he probably was. But 1996 or 1997 he really wasn't. Maybe he wasn't to your tastes but your tastes are dumb (nah jokes I heart you)

At the end of the day ric flair walked out with the title as well and wore it on Fucking wwf television for months. People try to act like Bret was breaking some sacred rule when a) he wasn't leaving with the belt and b) it had been done when guys weren't treated right on their way out in the past

Also if you are arguing about how the belt was "fake" and and Bret shouldn't have cared about dropping it since it was a dumb fake belt, Vince went to a lot of lengths to keep his fake belt.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:04 PM   #60
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It's amazing how hard it is for people to accept that Shawn and Hunter were being weasily littlendipshits, Bret was being his difficult self and Vince was being sleezy. The 3 aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 04-11-2016, 12:15 AM   #61
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They were probably miserable having to put up with that disrespectful whiner Bret Hart.
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Old 04-11-2016, 07:09 AM   #62
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Shawn Michaels was an asswipe. Good in the ring - not believable but good in terms of entertainment. Seeing Sid punch him in the face over and over was enjoyable
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:42 AM   #63
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In 1995/1996 Michaels promos were decidedly shit. He was fucking annoying.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:57 PM   #64
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That Prime Minister of yours has a pretty mouth. I wouldn't kick Justine out of my bed.
Loved my Trump gimmick.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:58 PM   #65
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Montreal was a work
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:10 PM   #66
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Haha, Liam schooled CyNick so bad. I missed this thread last year, but I cannot believe that CyNick tried to use the future to explain the past. What? Does the guy not get how time works?

What was the final straw for CyNick's trollness being soundly defeated? I know #1-wwf-fan went on a crusade to encourage people not to interact with him, and BigCrippyZ and hb2k used to Crossface/Superkick him repeatedly, but was there a final showdown? I feel like I have asked this before.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:15 PM   #67
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Montreal was a work
You know what? I've never really commented on Montreal. For some reason it's just an event that never really interested me. It was well and truly probed by the time I really got into the backstage stuff, I guess. I've always scoffed at the idea of it being a work, because it sounds too conspiracy theory for me. But we're in the world of wrestling. If Bret doesn't want to lose and Shawn doesn't want to lose and you need to get the belt off Bret -- I dunno, I'm not going to say that I believe it's a work, because it seems to go against everything I know, but it'd be kind of sweet if it were. Maybe not as sweet as Justin Trudeau, but still sweet.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:24 PM   #68
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Give me a reason why vince came to ringside if it wasnt a work. Why would he not use the ear pieces in any of the half a dozen people at ringside? If it werent wrestling youd automatically think it was stupid.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:46 PM   #69
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Actually, fucking yeah. Hahaha, I can't believe I've never thought of that.

Well, okay, but isn't it possible that Vince and Shawn knew what they were doing (well, obviously), and that they were going to use it to get Shawn over as a bigger heel and introduce Vince McMahon as a character without Bret knowing?
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:47 PM   #70
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I'll give you that they definitely knew they weren't going subtle with it.
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Old 11-08-2017, 07:53 PM   #71
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Nah. Bret was in. If he wasnt Owen wouldnt have stayed. The whole thing was to keep bret from getting sued. Bret promised to Blaze the belt on nitro. Woulda killed the fed no question. War over. Bret and vince used that to get a huge payday for bret and crafted this elaborate song and dance to take the balme off bret.

Without the belt bischoff had nothing for bret. That was the angle when he gave him the contract. So bret just never did anything.
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:05 PM   #72
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Interesting. So why nothing when Bret's career was over until 2010? Hangover from the Owen death?
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:07 PM   #73
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Because its the greatest work of all time
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:07 PM   #74
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Let the last good bit of kayfabe live
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:28 PM   #75
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If it was a work, then it really is a beautiful bit of kayfabe.

What has Eric Bischoff said about his plans for Bret? Has he come out and said that he instructed him not to lose and to burn the belt on Nitro?
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Old 11-08-2017, 09:27 PM   #76
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Ive never heard him speak on it. But you tell me why youd pat what he paid and then do nothing with him
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Old 11-08-2017, 10:36 PM   #77
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I don't think there's a good explanation even if he doesn't come over with the belt. You've for Bret Hart and then do nothing with him? 1998 was a great year for WCW, but fuck me does it make no sense.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:10 PM   #78
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At the very least you bring him over as mr wwf and job the fuck put of him. Bare minimum
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:30 AM   #79
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You think you'd run at least one show in Canada.
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:51 AM   #80
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Yeah, that really is one the great unspoken ironies of the situation. Everything they were worried about, WCW didnt even fucking bother trying.




Crazy Like A Fox - The Definitive Chronicle of Brian Pillman 20 Years Later
**Featuring interviews with members of the Pillman family, Dave Meltzer, Kim Wood, Raven, Jim Cornette, Mark Madden, Shane Douglas, Mark Coleman, Alex Marvez, Les Thatcher and many more close friends and colleagues**
Available on Amazon now:
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