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Old 05-16-2018, 10:58 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:01 PM   #322
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I'm not gonna believe the crazy homeless lady who claims she was raped by George Washington's ghost. That's the extreme example. The less extreme example is not believing the drug addict attention whore who bragged about sex with a guy before deciding to accuse him of rape. Both are more logical reactions than "Well, she's got a vagina so... probably telling the truth." That's setting a horrifying precedent.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:01 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.

Your naive if you think otherwise.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:04 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
How is that any different than automatically believing the woman is lying either every time incidents like this pop up.

Based on the various sites I visit daily, a ton more have stuck with the woman being a liar the whole time and used today to pounce on their claims even though the case was only dismissed. A big chunk believing he's still a dumbass for not telling the WWE, a smaller chunk realizing he's still neither guilty nor innocent (same for the accuser), and barely anyone claiming he is still a rapist.
Once that stench is on you it's never removed.

And yep, he is a dumbass for not telling WWE. If that's their motivation (coupled with his shit attitude) for keeping him fired then that's cool.

I'm not talking about the news sites anyways. I'm talking about here. And enough of pretty much civilians participating in most discourse.

"Dude gets accused of rape and doesn't end up getting charged" usually turns into "well statistics show that he likely did it". It's ugly.

Rape is certainly uglier. But it is different to many crimes given its social implications. To act like women faking accusations is laughable is very naive.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:05 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
It's not any different. The argument isn't "Always believe women" vs "Never believe women". It's "Always believe women" vs "Don't always believe women".
Well said.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:05 PM   #326
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If my options are "always believe women based off imaginary data" or "always reject women if there is a lack of data" i know which way im leaning.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:06 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.

Your naive if you think otherwise.
I'm not concerned with what "happens online". I'm talking about the discussion that's happening right now.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:07 PM   #328
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And if you want to ask "why would a woman lie about being raped?", ask yourself "why would a man rape a woman?" The argument commonly used for the latter question is it's about power.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:09 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
As much as you want to believe the latter, the former is what happens way more especially online.

Your naive if you think otherwise.
Gotta go with the TODDSTER here. We're talking about us hombres in this conversation (and most civil discourse). Most twitter/youtube threads are the dregs. I think we all line up closer than you think. Enough so that we can have a productive discussion.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:18 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
Gotta go with the TODDSTER here. We're talking about us hombres in this conversation (and most civil discourse). Most twitter/youtube threads are the dregs. I think we all line up closer than you think. Enough so that we can have a productive discussion.
Not when you all repeating the similar points but masquerading it to make it seem like your having a productive conversation or "balanced" debate.

But I digress, I have a different feeling on this issue, you/WWF Fan/Destor have your own and I doubt anything I post would shift your view nor yours on mine.

Same for whenever the topic of mental health or other touchy issues pop up on TPWW and I quickly realize my view is a lot different than others here. That's when I start to realize maybe it might be time to move on from here.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:38 PM   #331
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The idea isn't "They were accused so they must be guilty" but rather there's a good chance the accused could be based on stats. I assume when somebody's accused of anything, the chance of them being innocent/guilty is 50/50 (before I hear of the evidence involved).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One
Except Swann actually did it and it's all but proven that he did. With witnesses and everything. His wife just didn't wanna press charges.
Missed this earlier but that's my point. He still got even though he did. Also, he was initially got suspended, like Amore did, except he didn't fail to tell them.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:54 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Not when you all repeating the similar points but masquerading it to make it seem like your having a productive conversation or "balanced" debate.
We're saying "blindly believing all women is a horrible idea" and you're determined to vilify that logic by lumping us in with some internet trolls who say "never believe a woman" as opposed to listening to what we're actually saying. And we're somehow the ones who aren't interested in a productive conversation. You're being insanely dishonest. I agree we'll never come to an understanding because it's obvious from that alone that that isn't your M.O.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:15 AM   #333
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Would be interesting to see the reaction if some batshit crazy lady with no credibility accused a wrestler people actually like of rape with no evidence that she's being truthful and actual evidence that suggests she's lying. Like... if Daniel Bryan were in this situation instead of Enzo, I wonder if he would basically be considered guilty.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:44 AM   #334
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Enzo got fired for lying/not disclosing to the WWE about the investigation. Also he had already been on thin ice and kicked off the WWE bus by Roman Reigns.

He was a big-headed jerk and this was the excuse WWE was looking for to cut ties. He was over like rover but couldn't get out of his own way.

Badda boom, stupidest fuck in the room. How is he doing?
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:31 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.V.W. View Post
"Innocent until proven guilty" is so commonly misunderstood. It refers to legal innocence, not factual innocence, meaning that gov't has to prove an accused person is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Mileage can vary on reasonable doubt but a juror must not convict even if they believe the defendant to be guilty. That's why a person guilty as sin can get acquitted.

It is but doesn't cancel out the reality of false accusations being rare.


A crime likely being committed (not specifically referring to this case) does not mean guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And being acquitted doesn't mean that a crime was not committed.

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Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
My point is proven. Very clear that the allegation alone means Enzo is a rapist to you guys even though he has not been proven guilty.
Absolute bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
It shouldn't be misunderstood though. The fact that someone can have their livelihood stripped away solely based on accusations, without their guilt ever being proven, well that's just simply appalling to me.

Statistics should have no bearing on any of this. This is all on a case by case basis. Who cares if false accusations are rare? Those are other cases that have no relevance to this one. Every one of these situations is unique and to break it down into statistical analysis does all parties involved an injustice. If we keep heading down this road the number of false accusations is liable to start rising exponentially; once people realize they can screw over someone they don't like just by levelling an accusation at them, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim, more and more people will do it purely out of spite.
No one is entitled to a life of fame from the get-go. Enzo was lucky to be where he was in the first place. But he was also in hot water for his general attitude (asshole) and not informing the company of it (boneheaded). Also -- and it's been a while since I've read up on the details of the case -- but I'm fairly certain Enzo does not deny sleeping with the girl in question, and that all accounts had them both as intoxicated off illegal drugs or something like that? In the current PR-hungry world of WWE, that's not going to fly.

He's facing the consequences of his own actions. He's not going to prison for rape, because there is no evidence a rape was committed. But fuck me if he isn't a fucking muppet and I don't feel sorry for him because he lost his job for generally being a trouble magnet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Not really considering there are organizations that track these stats and reveal why it becomes one of the hardest crimes to get a conviction in court. Besides the circumstances and scrutiny for evidence, attacking the accuser's credibility has been a very proven and effective tactic both in court and public opinion.

Those same organizations also come up with the same overall result that the amount of rapes that don't get reported or investigated properly is way, way, way higher than those that do.


There are plenty of metrics to measure this sort of stuff. You aren't just going by trial data and conviction rates. There are medical reports, outcries, psychological studies, sociological studies, organizations that gather reports, even religious confessions. If anything, the number is likely underrepresented.

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Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
I'm not saying there isn't any merit to this. But it's literally one lens.

The attitude of "he was accused therefore he did it" is fucked.

He isn't even getting charged anymore because they can't prove anything and y'all are gonna act like he deserves it. I don't like Enzo, but with what we know from the case, nobody can fairly say he deserves to be considered a rapist by anyone.
Your first two lines are on the money. It is only one lens. That is why he is not being charged. Unfortunately, you often get multiple lenses and people still don't get charged. Sometimes things are pretty fucking obvious and people still don't get charged.

No one is saying that because he was accused he did it. It is unlikely that the girl made it up. That's just a fact. Could she have made it up? Sure. But is it likely? No. If it were true, would there be more evidence? Unfortunately, not necessarily. It's a big, dark mess. Does he deserve to be treated like a rapist? No. That's why he's not going to prison.

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Originally Posted by Seph View Post
How do they have even a count on "rapes that don't get reported"? If they aren't reported then how do they know about them? SO CONFUSING.
Medical reports, counseling sessions, outcries, confessions, studies, etc. I can't believe you don't know women who have been assaulted and never reported it.

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Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
We're saying "blindly believing all women is a horrible idea" and you're determined to vilify that logic by lumping us in with some internet trolls who say "never believe a woman" as opposed to listening to what we're actually saying. And we're somehow the ones who aren't interested in a productive conversation. You're being insanely dishonest. I agree we'll never come to an understanding because it's obvious from that alone that that isn't your M.O.
Well, when you misrepresent the other side of the argument so grossly as to talk about ghosts and shit, which you admit is "extreme," you make it pretty easy to vilify your logic. How about you listen to what other people are saying?

No one is saying that Enzo definitely did it. What we're saying is that there not being evidence enough to press charges doesn't mean he didn't. Until those charges can be pressed, he is free man though, so good for him.
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Old 05-17-2018, 02:45 AM   #336
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What doesn't sit well with me when discussing things like this is the inherent fact that someone is lying. Either the woman is lying or Enzo is lying. It's possible both are lying. It's possible both think they are telling the truth, but objective reality suggests that they can't both be telling it. What's really unsettling to me is just how comfortable a lot of dudes are with saying that it's the chick that's lying. You don't even need to say that Enzo is lying, but the idea that this is just a dark and messy situation with a definitive victim (of some description) that they should not have to go through is kind of brushed aside in favor of "she's a crack whore, she can't be trusted." Not an actual quote from anyone, but the sentiment floats around and it makes me want to destroy the entire internet.

People that aren't perceived as having any credibility can be raped too. Homeless people, drug addicts, compulsive liars. It doesn't just exist for good girls who tell the truth all the time and don't touch coke. I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up? I think Dale would, and I'd like to think #fan and Destor would, but it's something to give some thought about whether or not this is really about a lack of evidence, or just what the charge implies.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:56 AM   #337
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What doesn't sit well with me is that people want to assign some statistical value to each party as to which is more likely to be the liar. Each case is different, each person is different; women being statistically less likely to lie than men in this situation should have no bearing whatsoever on a specific case.

I'm not siding with Enzo. I'm not siding against his accuser. I'm erring on the side of caution because some statistical analysis of completely different people who have nothing to do with this case means nothing to me when I'm trying to determine my own personal judgement of this singular situation. And unlike some people, I'm not willing to convict Enzo just because he has a penis which supposedly means he's more likely to be the one spinning a yarn.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:26 AM   #338
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I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:31 AM   #339
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I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
Man that whole 30 for 30 was rough to fucking watch.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:00 AM   #340
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Well, when you misrepresent the other side of the argument so grossly as to talk about ghosts and shit, which you admit is "extreme," you make it pretty easy to vilify your logic. How about you listen to what other people are saying?

No one is saying that Enzo definitely did it. What we're saying is that there not being evidence enough to press charges doesn't mean he didn't. Until those charges can be pressed, he is free man though, so good for him.
That's not misrepresenting the other side. My "raped by a ghost" example, by your logic, shouldn't be discounted because women lying about rape is "statistically rare". It's an extreme example because you guys can't seem to see the obviously flaw in the more subtle example. The point of it is, other factors come into play.

And yes, you're not saying that Enzo definitely did it. But when you keep making it clear "well, he could have still done it because women don't tend to lie about rape", you're clearly implying where the odds lean. Why is my extreme example so crazy? Because there's other factors at play that make it seem unlikely? If so, congrats. You're using the same logic we've been using the entire time. We're on the same page.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:07 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
I wonder how many of the people crying poor Enzo would honestly defend a woman in this situation if she came up on charges without there being enough evidence that she was actually making it up? I think Dale would, and I'd like to think #fan and Destor would, but it's something to give some thought about whether or not this is really about a lack of evidence, or just what the charge implies.
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:19 AM   #342
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ain't no one pounding no believing men
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:28 AM   #343
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I wish the Duke Lacrosse team would weigh in on this.
I wonder if their lives are normal after this. Cause I know the girl isn't doing too well.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:33 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:35 AM   #345
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I wonder if their lives are normal after this. Cause I know the girl isn't doing too well.
Didn't she commit suicide or something? Maybe I have my stories mixed up there.

Either way, no matter what way you swing it that situation was god fucking awful.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:38 AM   #346
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She's in prison for murder apparently. Didn't see that coming.
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:43 AM   #347
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Oh yeah I think I remember that. Fuck.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:02 PM   #348
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The police Sgt on the case committed suicide.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:53 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Yes. I would defend a woman if the sex was reversed in this case. And it would have 0 to do with her sex. It wouldn't be until someone comes in and makes it about that by saying "Well, men don't usually lie about rape." and then implies some sexism because you're not #believingmen that it becomes about gender.
Why would you even specify that? Odd.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:56 PM   #350
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Why would you even specify that? Odd.
I clearly needs to be after rampant accusations of sexism surrounding this topic
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:56 PM   #351
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because this conversation has been about gender and sex as much as anything else.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:12 PM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
That's not misrepresenting the other side. My "raped by a ghost" example, by your logic, shouldn't be discounted because women lying about rape is "statistically rare". It's an extreme example because you guys can't seem to see the obviously flaw in the more subtle example. The point of it is, other factors come into play.

And yes, you're not saying that Enzo definitely did it. But when you keep making it clear "well, he could have still done it because women don't tend to lie about rape", you're clearly implying where the odds lean. Why is my extreme example so crazy? Because there's other factors at play that make it seem unlikely? If so, congrats. You're using the same logic we've been using the entire time. We're on the same page.
Except sexual abusers and ghosts don't exist in the same realm of likelihood? That's just a ridiculous and childish example. The chances of someone being sick aren't out of this world, but the chances of someone being infected with an extra-terrestrial flesh-eating virus specifically out of a sci-fi movie in the 80's come to life with magic is low.

I don't think I made that quote. You're splicing two halves of two different points together. "Women don't usually lie about rape" is one point. That's true. I don't see your big problem with that and why that truth makes you uncomfortable. The second is that "he could have still done it, because there not being enough evidence to convict doesn't mean it didn't happen," which is not an outlandish statement ever. If there are two children who could have eaten the cookies from a cookie jar, and you can't be sure who it was, and they each accuse the other and you don't have the evidence to accuse either one, it doesn't mean that the cookies weren't eaten. In this case: Maybe there were no eaten cookies? Maybe there were? We don't know, but where I disagree is when you say there definitely aren't because you can't be sure an accused party actually did it. You just shouldn't blame them for eating cookies if you aren't sure cookies have been eaten. But you also shouldn't go around calling someone with an empty cookie jar with crumbs in it a liar also.

I think you've been far too biased with your application of what makes it "unlikely." I mean, neither of us has access to any sort of psychological assessment on the girl, but if I remember you were someone saying that because she "bragged" about it in a text, it means she couldn't have not given consent? I'm sure there's a proper name for it, but when people are abused you often see them try to take ownership over that abuse by compartmentalizing it differently in their mind. It's like disassociation, I suppose, but you see it in younger abuse victims all the time. They will almost brag about being hurt or make it seem like no big deal. It doesn't mean nothing's happened to them, man. Not everyone responds with tears at the time.

The only other thing is the guy that says she's a liar. But if he's a liar...

It's dumb. It's really fucking dumb to discuss this like either of us has intimate knowledge of what is happening. I'm just put-off by people so willing to attack the credibility of a woman reporting a crime, of which false reports I believe are still felonies, making it extremely disadvantageous.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:17 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Noid View Post
It's dumb. It's really fucking dumb to discuss this like either of us has intimate knowledge of what is happening. I'm just put-off by people so willing to attack the credibility of a woman reporting a crime, of which false reports I believe are still felonies, making it extremely disadvantageous.
The problem is we have equal amounts of evidence that she is reporting a crime as we do that she is committing one. Guess thats not the kind of equality that matters though.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:17 PM   #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destor View Post
I clearly needs to be after rampant accusations of sexism surrounding this topic
Interestingly enough, the only person who has used the word "sexism" since Dale brought this back up is #fan. Methinks biases are creeping in a bit too much.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:20 PM   #355
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Quote:
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The problem is we have equal amounts of evidence that she is reporting a crime as we do that she is committing one. Guess thats not the kind of equality that matters though.
We're 100% sure she reported a crime. Or do you mean that she is reporting an accurate crime?

Lol, Enzo isn't getting prosecuted right now. So many people are like "Innocent until proven guilty" then when Enzo gets off because there isn't definitive proof that he is guilty they are still beating that drum for some reason.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:22 PM   #356
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Quote:
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We're 100% sure she reported a crime. Or do you mean that she is reporting an accurate crime?

Lol, Enzo isn't getting prosecuted right now. So many people are like "Innocent until proven guilty" then when Enzo gets off because there isn't definitive proof that he is guilty they are still beating that drum for some reason.
We are not sure she reported a crime. We are 100% sure she made an accusation. But since the default in absolutely every instance is "no crime has been committed" im left with saying "no crime has been committed" in the face of no evidence to the contrary.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:22 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noid View Post
Interestingly enough, the only person who has used the word "sexism" since Dale brought this back up is #fan. Methinks biases are creeping in a bit too much.
We dont have to say the word, we all know what this conversation is about. Why are playing semantics games?
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:30 PM   #358
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Sexism and misogyny are always implied in these discussions.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:31 PM   #359
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Look, some people in here know what is up, so I don't feel the need to win anyone else over, and I just feel gross talking about this. Here are my final thoughts:

* It is true that women rarely report false sexual assault claims. There is nothing outlandish about this claim. If it makes you uncomfortable, seek help.

* Enzo was accused of sexual assault. It was unlikely to be a false report given statistics. These are not evidence. No one is saying that they are.

* Enzo was released from the WWE because of the compounded issue of the allegations, his disclosure of them, his attitude in general, and probably his lack of talent. See Heath Slater for someone who was accused of sexual harassment/assault, handled it correctly, and still has a job today. This is not a violation of Enzo's right to due process.

* Upon investigaton, it was discovered that there was not enough evidence to charge Enzo. This does not mean he did it, nor that he didn't do it. It means what it suggests -- that there is not enough evidence to charge Enzo. As a result, due to the legal process, Enzo is a free man until more evidence can be uncovered, if it exists at all, if a crime was committed at all.

* Rape allegations should still be taken very seriously, considering the fact that they are not usually fabricated. Men and women with substance abuse problems can be assaulted too, and their past shouldn't dismiss their credibility. A healthy amount of skepticism can be taken whilst still investigating. People in these situations can be preyed upon and can lie about all the circumstances surrounding an event and the core incident can still be true.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:35 PM   #360
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Look at it like this Noid.

With what we know about the accuser, we've used our intuition and critical thinking skills to say "ehhhh we don't buy it". The lack of evidence for a case only supports this feeling.

Honestly, this is just what we know. We weren't there. We'll likely never know what happened that night.

My main issue is this will stain Enzo's reputation. Given I believe with what has been presented to me that he didn't do it, I think that is awful.

And I'm aware crazy immature drug addicts get raped. In fact, given the lifestyle, probably more frequently than less at-risk people. Still doesn't make this specific lunatic credible. The story seemed to have holes in it from the beginning.
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