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View Poll Results: Did Bret Hart do anything important other than The Montreal Screwjob?
Nope, Montreal is it 4 10.81%
yeah 26 70.27%
Goldberg was more important 7 18.92%
Shawn Michaels was more important 11 29.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 37. You must log in or register to vote on this poll.

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Old 05-14-2018, 10:59 AM   #121
Shisen Kopf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Lol the tag division were the New Age Outlaws, repackaged Godwins , stale Headbangers, New Midnight Express and repackaged Legion of Doom.
Solid bunch of teams. They cant all be Luke Graham and Tarzan Tyler.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:01 AM   #122
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Loose Cannon and Dastardly One nailed it. Storylines and characters were way more interesting in '97. '95, which is considered to be one of WWE's worst yrs, saw a ton of silly, crappy gimmicks that nobody could get invested in and no credible challengers for Diesel. You couldn't replace Hogan though Vince certainly tried w/ Luger and Diesel. When the nWo came along it was the perfect storm b/c nothing compelling was going on in WWF or WCW plus the counter culture of the late '90s. Not to mention WWF benefitted greatly from the Screwjob b/c Vince was very believable as the Mr. McMahon character.


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Old 05-14-2018, 11:06 AM   #123
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I wouldn't say the undercard workers had as much to do with the success or failure of the show as the people writing or making decisions behind the scenes did.

I agree if you're paid to main event and you don't sell tickets, the blame usually falls on one guy and it's usually the guy on top. can't really argue that. but i don't think Vince, the writers nor the wrestlers understood what people really wanted during that time. we wouldn't find out until the nWo angle that people wanted a more realistic and edgier product.

So if you went the cut a dry route, was Bret a draw: nope. but until the product chnaged as a whole, nobody could draw anything. Even Taker, Savage, HBK, Sting, Flair, Vader, Nash, Backlund and Hogan.

Although it's funny, Hogan was a draw for a bit there in WCW. The guy can spark some interest.

And Gertner, that's like the worst example you could throw out there. That card has Taker/HBK on there with the hot Kane angle. Plus New Age Outlaws were starting to get over huge around that time. And you had the start of the Rock character, which people loved to hate.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:22 AM   #124
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:22 AM   #125
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Go watch the 98 Rumble.

The undercard didn't get deep until early 1999.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:23 AM   #126
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1998 rumble was a great show. Stop talking nonsense
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:23 AM   #127
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the company wasn't built around Bret. He was always mid card champ.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:24 AM   #128
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It even had a midget match
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:28 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dastardly One View Post
the company wasn't built around Bret. He was always mid card champ.
Bullshit
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:37 PM   #130
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Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler of all time by a mile but I have no problem admitting he did not work as the face of the company in the 90's. He just wasn't the kind of larger than life personality that drew money on a big stage at the time. Bret was in the same boat.
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Old 05-14-2018, 12:41 PM   #131
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Of course, Michaels had the personality, charisma and showmanship to eventually become a star but that's another story.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:35 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Shawn Michaels is my favorite wrestler of all time by a mile but I have no problem admitting he did not work as the face of the company in the 90's. He just wasn't the kind of larger than life personality that drew money on a big stage at the time. Bret was in the same boat.
Did you buy his Playgirl magazine?!
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Old 05-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #133
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Here's the 1998 SummerSlam card.

Lol the undercard is horrible. 2 match show. The undercard didn't get good until very late 98/early 99

SUMMERSLAM 1998█RESULTS

- D'Lo Brown def. Val Venis
- The Oddities def. Kaientai
- X-Pac def. Jeff Jarrett
- Edge & Sable def. Marc Mero & Jacqueline
- Ken Shamrock def. Owen Hart
- The New Age Outlaws def. Mankind
- Triple H def. The Rock
- Stone Cold Steve Austin def. Undertaker
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:06 PM   #134
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The best Bret Hart has ever been
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=96s&v=FxCDDlSw9-A
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:28 PM   #135
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"And if you don't like it, tough shit!" is the greatest line he's ever said.
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Old 05-14-2018, 08:28 PM   #136
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he crushed that. grand slam sir
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #137
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actually listened to bischoff bury hart for 2 hours. I see kind of where Bischoff is coming from.
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Old 05-14-2018, 11:59 PM   #138
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will probably become friendly with Bret again like Flair did.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:04 AM   #139
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Bischoffs podcast is what you would expect from a guy who has his nose so far up hogans ass. He "doesnt remember" a lot
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Old 05-15-2018, 02:09 AM   #140
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What'd he say?
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:44 AM   #141
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So Destor, do you not like Bret Hart because he wasn’t a draw or are you just not a fan?
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:40 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad News Gertner View Post
Here's the 1998 SummerSlam card.

Lol the undercard is horrible. 2 match show. The undercard didn't get good until very late 98/early 99

SUMMERSLAM 1998█RESULTS

- D'Lo Brown def. Val Venis
- The Oddities def. Kaientai
- X-Pac def. Jeff Jarrett
- Edge & Sable def. Marc Mero & Jacqueline
- Ken Shamrock def. Owen Hart
- The New Age Outlaws def. Mankind
- Triple H def. The Rock
- Stone Cold Steve Austin def. Undertaker
Would rather watch this card than the shit today, and I don't know if that's a compliment to that card or not. Like, The Outlaws were a hollow act, Jeff Jarrett and Val Venis were bland to the point they lost viewers and Mero was dead at this point, but only The Oddities really offend me. I do agree with your point that the Attitude era was built off the back of Austin, however. I think one of the biggest myths about the era is that the whole show was strong. Well, it was strong when it was built around Austin and what Austin was going to do next. The Russo gimmicks were fucking turgid to the point that Sable was legitimately the second biggest draw they had for a while there.

Bret, to me, is the perfect performative star. What he does in the ring is the story, and when you're in the know that becomes the story. It's probably not the best idea to build around a guy like Bret Hart when you are trying to appeal to a national audience. He seems like the perfect Intercontinental Champion for that sort of era (and I don't mean that as an insult).

I blast all the guys today because they are all geeks and don't draw any money and bore me to fucking tears with their cookie-cutter personalities. Would it be hypocritical of me to see Dale's point about the WWF fucking sucking at this period, because it was contaminated by the rotten philosophy of Vince McMahon?

If Vince had not had WCW breathing down his neck, does he ever go with Austin in the first place? I truly think that if Vince has his own way, it's fuck Stone Cold, let's go with Billy Gunn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Vince went with what was hot because he was on the back foot, which rarely happens. And for that reason, I don't know how pure the "Austin did it" argument is. Austin is proof of what a star can do.

But when you get the push and you don't deliver? Gosh, it's hard. I blame Seth Rollins as much as the office for how much he sucked as World Champion. But how is anybody supposed to stand out there? Ultimately, I do think that somebody with genuine charisma could do it. Goldberg came in and proved what happens when you have a man in the house. The New Day found a way to get their own stuff in and are still reaping in the merchandise.

I don't really know whether or not to call Bret a failure or not, because I've always taken this period for granted according to the broad strokes of general knowledge. Was Bret in a position to draw? It seems like it, but I can also see the point that the booking around him a lot of the time was shit. I honestly think it's that shared responsibility thing.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:41 AM   #143
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Did Shawn Michaels ever become a draw? The WrestleMania events he headlined were notoriously well-known for not doing as well as others around them, I thought (save for WrestleMania 23, which was aided by Vince vs. Trump).
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:44 AM   #144
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Would rather watch this card than the shit today, and I don't know if that's a compliment to that card or not. Like, The Outlaws were a hollow act, Jeff Jarrett and Val Venis were bland to the point they lost viewers and Mero was dead at this point, but only The Oddities really offend me. I do agree with your point that the Attitude era was built off the back of Austin, however. I think one of the biggest myths about the era is that the whole show was strong. Well, it was strong when it was built around Austin and what Austin was going to do next. The Russo gimmicks were fucking turgid to the point that Sable was legitimately the second biggest draw they had for a while there.

Bret, to me, is the perfect performative star. What he does in the ring is the story, and when you're in the know that becomes the story. It's probably not the best idea to build around a guy like Bret Hart when you are trying to appeal to a national audience. He seems like the perfect Intercontinental Champion for that sort of era (and I don't mean that as an insult).

I blast all the guys today because they are all geeks and don't draw any money and bore me to fucking tears with their cookie-cutter personalities. Would it be hypocritical of me to see Dale's point about the WWF fucking sucking at this period, because it was contaminated by the rotten philosophy of Vince McMahon?

If Vince had not had WCW breathing down his neck, does he ever go with Austin in the first place? I truly think that if Vince has his own way, it's fuck Stone Cold, let's go with Billy Gunn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Vince went with what was hot because he was on the back foot, which rarely happens. And for that reason, I don't know how pure the "Austin did it" argument is. Austin is proof of what a star can do.

But when you get the push and you don't deliver? Gosh, it's hard. I blame Seth Rollins as much as the office for how much he sucked as World Champion. But how is anybody supposed to stand out there? Ultimately, I do think that somebody with genuine charisma could do it. Goldberg came in and proved what happens when you have a man in the house. The New Day found a way to get their own stuff in and are still reaping in the merchandise.

I don't really know whether or not to call Bret a failure or not, because I've always taken this period for granted according to the broad strokes of general knowledge. Was Bret in a position to draw? It seems like it, but I can also see the point that the booking around him a lot of the time was shit. I honestly think it's that shared responsibility thing.
This is not a very well-constructed representation of my views, and was more of a meandering ramble. Basically, I've grown to really appreciate Bret Hart's work, but I also understand that he was hardly in the same league of stardom as Sammartino, Hogan, Austin, etc.

Something to throw into the mix: John Cena fucking tanked ratings as WWE Champion. He moved merchandise and the company has stretched itself out into different revenue streams under him, but I think amongst the general respect for the individual and the length of time he has been consistently featured at the top, it's often forgotten that people did not want to see him in the main event either.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:55 AM   #145
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Yeah I'm not sitting here saying Bret Hart was Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. I just don't think you can take away that he was amazing and had a hell of a career.
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Old 05-15-2018, 11:45 AM   #146
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So Destor, do you not like Bret Hart because he wasn’t a draw or are you just not a fan?
I love his work. But when the conversation is legacy as a top guy I think Bret's is very poor and I like to think im objective enough to differentiate between the two.
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Old 05-15-2018, 12:52 PM   #147
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I love his work. But when the conversation is legacy as a top guy I think Bret's is very poor and I like to think im objective enough to differentiate between the two.
I dunno. There's enough people that love Bret's work that it doesn't justify how much he gets shit on, more importantly, how much you shit on him.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:03 PM   #148
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I never shit on his work, I shit on the fruit of his work. Which there is none.

"That dog wont hunt"
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:31 PM   #149
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He certainly bore a lot of fruits for his work. Plus, he was one of those guys that while he didn't push the needle like an Austin or Hogan, the live crowd was 100% invested in what he was doing.

And again, he helped lay the ground work and helped develop the Austin character. Comparatively, Hogan may himself have drawn but he never once effectively passed the torch. The closest I GUESS was Warrior but let's not pretend Hulk didn't make the aftermath all about him.

I mean look at how Hogan left. Wouldn't put over Bret. Pretty much stripped WWF of all its credibility, did a half hearted job to Yoko (who was never going to be a flag bearer).

For all of Bret's inability to draw, Austin's feud with Bret made Steve one of the hottest acts in wrestling. Sure, it's fortuitous for you to make ham-fisted claims that Bret left and ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT did the company get hot. No, it got hot because Bret didn't kill the fucking town when he left. He actually helped make guys.

Obviously Bret's not the only reason, but if you don't think he was 100% instrumental in helping make Steve, well why don't you just ask Steve how he feels about that?
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:32 PM   #150
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By "he bore a lot of fruits for his work" I meant he himself made a fuck load of money.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:35 PM   #151
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Bret tried to kill the town when he left. Vince just ended up spinning it into gold.

Lol Bret wanted a dq finish in the Main Event of a major ppv and then hand the title over on Raw while jumping to the competition who happens to be kicking their ass.

How does that remotely put the WWF in a good light?
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:39 PM   #152
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Bret tried to kill the town when he left. Vince just ended up spinning it into gold.

Lol Bret wanted a dq finish in the Main Event of a major ppv and then hand the title over on Raw while jumping to the competition who happens to be kicking their ass.

How does that remotely put the WWF in a good light?
Oh fuck off Gert lol

This has been explained ad nauseam a million times. First of all, Michaels was a prick to Bret. Told him he'd never job to him. I've heard tons of wrestlers say they'd never have jobbed to Michaels under the same circumstances.

He said he'd have jobbed out any other time after Montreal to Shawn (he was still under contract). He'd have jobbed to anyone BEFORE Montreal other than Shawn. I'm not blaming Vince for doing what he did but let's not act like Bret was the only guilty party.

But whatever, keep servicing your retarded narrative.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:40 PM   #153
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By "he bore a lot of fruits for his work" I meant he himself made a fuck load of money.
thats not much of a legacy
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:42 PM   #154
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He also main evented Wrestlemanias, sold out Wembley Stadium, and created a fuck load of memorable moments while making millions of dollars for himself.

I'll take that legacy.
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Old 05-15-2018, 01:48 PM   #155
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of course you would but that isnt the topic at hand. the real issue with tryign to talk about brets achievements is bret marks are just like "I loved him sooooooo much" and base an argument around that. It isnt objective. He had a fine career, most would be envious. But if we're talking about writing the definitive history of pro wrestling bret comes up at most twice. He just didnt have that meaningful of a career in hindsight.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:30 PM   #156
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Oh fuck off Gert lol

This has been explained ad nauseam a million times. First of all, Michaels was a prick to Bret. Told him he'd never job to him. I've heard tons of wrestlers say they'd never have jobbed to Michaels under the same circumstances.

He said he'd have jobbed out any other time after Montreal to Shawn (he was still under contract). He'd have jobbed to anyone BEFORE Montreal other than Shawn. I'm not blaming Vince for doing what he did but let's not act like Bret was the only guilty party.

But whatever, keep servicing your retarded narrative.
You're rationalizing. "He was a dick to me" isn't a reason to refuse to drop the title to the guy they wanna push. He was on his way out and they wanted HBK to get the rub off of him on his way out. He should have dropped the title to a broom if they wanted him to instead of being a mark for himself and refusing to lose a fake title to a guy because he was mean to him. End of story.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:39 PM   #157
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of course you would but that isnt the topic at hand. the real issue with tryign to talk about brets achievements is bret marks are just like "I loved him sooooooo much" and base an argument around that. It isnt objective. He had a fine career, most would be envious. But if we're talking about writing the definitive history of pro wrestling bret comes up at most twice. He just didnt have that meaningful of a career in hindsight.
But that's not what Dale's doing here. He's making a pretty good case for Bret, to be honest. I get annoyed at the subjectivity on the internet as much as anybody (this place infuriated me with its Alexa Bliss goddess worship a while back), but I think Bret is more significant than two mentions. I think he's an important part of WWF history (the dominant company, dark as this timeline might be), and is chained to major moments and events.

On Bret refusing to drop the belt to Michaels: Why did Vince even have it on him when he was clearly going to step away from Bret anyway? Why does Vince not take the blame in setting this situation up for himself? HBK was really hard to deal with during the period, and I can understand why Bret would not want to lose to the prick in his home country. Especially if it pissed off Bischoff who should have reasonably seen money in Canada, and could have held it against Bret if he tarnished that reservoir. Hell, The Rock has refused to even work with Shawn Michaels.

It's easy to say "Bret should have done what he was told," but wrestling had a lot more prestige and cache then. Michaels refused to drop belts to countless people himself. Austin refused to work with certain individuals. And I'd applaud Brock if he refused to drop the belt to a limited piece of shit he needs to beat up to get into position like Braun Strowman. Lying down for Michaels in Canada was a dumb idea for Vince to present, frankly.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #158
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He also main evented Wrestlemanias, sold out Wembley Stadium, and created a fuck load of memorable moments while making millions of dollars for himself.

I'll take that legacy.
Bulldog drew Wembley. Bret pulled a HHH cling job
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:49 PM   #159
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But that's not what Dale's doing here. He's making a pretty good case for Bret, to be honest.
We'll have to disagree on that one
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:56 PM   #160
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Bulldog drew Wembley. Bret pulled a HHH cling job
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