DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?
 

DISCUSSION - Could "Montreal" have been averted by Bret Hart jobbing to Undertaker on RAW the next night?

At Survivor Series, they play out Bret's idea of a DQ finish. DX does something stupid to Bret which causes Bret to be distracted and argue with the ref. HBK then nails Bret with Sweet Chin Music (reminiscent of their match at Wrestlemania 12), but then the Hart Foundation get involved causing the DQ finish.


The next night on RAW, Bret gives a farewell speech, but tells the WWE Universe that he lied to them, and intends to take the belt with him to "the other show."


Undertaker's music hits and Taker challenges Bret to one final match later on RAW. Taker then defeats Bret clean for the pin.


After Taker wins, you then go back to what originally happened where Shawn defeats Taker at the next PPV due to Kane interference. Things then resume as originally as planned.


Why couldn't the WWE have just done this?

-Undertaker is a guy that Bret respected, and would have done the job to.


-Shawn would have still looked 'strong' against Bret due to the Hart Foundation having to interfere to cause the DQ.


One problem I have against the argument of, "Well - the whole point of Shawn going CLEANLY over Bret is that it makes Shawn look more credible for his inevitable collision with Austin," is that Shawn got absolutely man-handled by Undertaker at Bad Blood (before Kane interfered), and so "making Shawn look like a boss" was kind of in vain anyways.

Bret was the guy leaving the territory. Least he could do is put over the guy WWE asked him to on the date they requested. Nash didn't bellyache about putting over Taker is him home country. He also didn't whine about putting over Shawn also in his home country. It also didn't prevent him from getting over in WCW. Bret was selfish.

I don't see how some convoluted angle on RAW would do any good. As it worked out Bret being selfish was the best thing that ever happened to WWE. Some may call it karma.

Unless I'm mistaken, his contract literally ended the day of the PPV. Bret suggested dropping the title to someone the next night on raw, but vince and co. shot it down because despite Bret's long tenure with the company, it was the monday night war era and they didn't want to risk an alundra blaze repeat with their world title.

I think his contract expired just after the PPV.

But yeah the issue came down to Bret had "reasonable creative control" in how he was booked and WWE didn't want it to get out further that Bret was going to WCW. And yeah they were worried either Bret would leave with the belt or Eric would announce on Nitro that he signed the current WWF Champion.

It amazes me that anyone defends Bret.

The only leverage that Bret really has in the argument, is that Shawn was the biggest dickhead of a champion there ever was. A wrestler is supposed to job to the next guy on the way out, but in this case, the next guy had been spitting in the face of tradition and how a champion is supposed to conduct himself since he made it to the main event.

That's why I've seen and read about old school guys backing Bret here and there.

Not saying I am on Bret's side, as he seems to be not far off from where hbk was on the prick scale, but I can understand someone sympathizing with him.

I used to see Brets side too, then you start digging into how big of a politician Bret was and is hard to sympathize with him on his opinion about Shawn.

Shawn was someone who believed in his own abilities and thought he was more talented than his peers. Bret saw his as a threat and vice versa so they clashed. Make no mistake though, Bret was just as big of a prick.

so tired of hearing anything about Montreal screwjob... such an overblown event

As I understand it, bret's creative control clause was only for 30 days prior to his contract expiring. If that was true, the bad blood ppv was on the 5th of October and I feel Bret should have dropped the title there. Vader wasn't massive over but would have been a believable transition champ for a month to get the belt back to shawn.

I could never understand vince's mindset of having one of your top stars go to competition with any kind of steam. I don't even know why they put the title on Bret at summerslam that year

For the longest of time, I always thought Bret's contract expired at the end of the night (midnight). Therefore, he would technically not be obligated to attend the show the following day. However, in recent years it's been made known that Bret's contract actually expired almost a month later. In that case, he legit could have done anything on Raw and was still under contract. This is where the murky water is hard to tread through:

Was there an agreement made between Vince & Bret that the Montreal match no matter what would be his final appearance with the company before the idea of Bret dropping to Shawn became pitched? This would be a great question to get an answer to.

Bret has stated that he fulfilled all his required dates in the contract and didn't have to show up anywhere after & including that match. I wonder if Vince's big hang up was not the Bret/Shawn issue, but more of the Bret/Vince/Eric issue. I have a feeling that even if Bret said that he would do ANYTHING with the belt on Raw that Vince asked, Vince did not trust that Eric didn't shelve him 100 million or something to ditch Raw and go to Nitro instead. This would be a logical reason because Bret fulfilled his WWF responsibilities of his contract already there for it would be like a CM Punk walk out, minus the no-compete clause that didn't exist back then.

For the record, I do not think Bret would have shown up on Nitro with the belt if Vince agreed to let Bret retain at SS and drop it the following night. I truly believe Bret in that he felt shafted by Shawn as a friend & colleague at the time and that is the only reason why he refused to do the job at SS.

Anything, even tar & feathering Bret's character in the ring, the following night on Raw would have been better than what actually happened at SS.

Dropping the title to Taker sounds like a good idea but feels like HBK and co would still have tried similar shenanigans for the Montreal match. Doesn't seem HBK would be ok with Bret getting the last laugh feud-wise considering the bad blood between the two.

In regards to contract status, doubt Bret would have pulled a fast one on the WWF considering the month gap between his departure and official WCW start. Since he was open about dropping the title post-ppv, likely had no problem with adding an extra date or two to resolve the title issue.

Bret's contract did NOT end at Montreal. He was still under contract for a few more weeks.

this is why he didnt appear the next night on Nitro. He was still under contract with WWF

Bret refused to job to non-Shawn guys in the month between Bad Blood and Survivor Series, including Shamrock, Vader, and, I believe Foley. Dude did it to himself as far as I'm concerned. His stubborness was his undoing.

It's my understanding that the term for Bret's contract lasted for an additional 30 days approximately but even before Survivor Series Bret had already met his contractual number of performance dates. In other words, as an example, Bret was obligated to perform 200 days a year during the term of the contract, and Bret had already met this 200 day requirement prior to appearing at the PPV, but he was still under contract not to perform for any other promotion during the remainder of the term.

Any additional dates after Bret met his yearly minimum during the term, would've been one-off performance/appearance contractual agreements (probably oral/handshake agreements).

^^^^ Yup

He showed up at Montreal, he would have shown up at Raw. There was no reason for him to burn bridges especially since he did planon coming back to wwf after 3 years. He mentions so to vince and also on Legends of Wrestling show.

In any event, there was no legal way he could appear on WCW tv otherwise Bischoff would have charted a plane and had bret flown to Nitro the very next night.

It wouldn't have created enough drama and we would not be talking about it right now. The screwjob is a beloved part of wrestling.

Oh don't get me wrong - I largely agree with you on Bret. Bret, in many respects, was as much a pain in the ass as HBK even if Bret had more noble intentions much of the time.


However - given the personal relationship between Bret and Vince, I just think the ugliness could have been averted.


1) Legally, Bret would not have been able to show up with the WWF title on WCW anyways.


2) The whole idea of wanting to make Shawn look 'strong' via clean win over Bret, was completely negated by the fact that Undertaker manhandled him at the next PPV anyways.


The only way Shawn cleanly defeating Bret would have made sense, was if Shawn defeated Undertaker in a convincing way as well, but this obviously didn't occur. Hence - my suggestion for the DQ finish where you have a similar ending to Wrestlemania 12, but with the Hart Foundation interfering.


On RAW the next night, Bret threatens to leave the WWE but then Undertaker (a.k.a. "The Conscience of the WWE" challenges Bret). Bret then admits that he's always respected the Undertaker and that Bret never backs down from a fight, and so he accepts the challenge.


Voila - Taker defeats Bret, and then jobs to HBK at the next PPV as par the course.

I don't think that Bret would have dropped the WWF Title to The UnderTaker the night after Survivor Series, where Raw was held at the current Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata, Ontario(suburban outskirt of Ottawa, Ontario).

The earliest I'dve seen Bret drop the title to a U.S. born talent would have been when Raw was held in Fayetteville, North Carolina's Cumberland Civic Center on Nov. 24, 1997.

For the record, Bret was under contract to WWE then until Nov. 30, 1997, where afterwards, he was free to leave for WCW.

And Bret dropping the title in North Carolina instead of Montreal may have saved a lot of bullshit happening afterwards, including Owen Hart's death.

I don't know much, but I do know this. Universal health care works great in Canada, Ted Cruz is a Canadian citizen, and Bret Hart should have been fired months before. That kind of insubordination, I would not tolerate it. No I wouldn't.

Bret Hart was a loser and I'm glad Goldberg ended his career. Wish he'd end Ted Cruz the same way, but you know he won't because he's a Jew and Jews seem to love Ted Cruz.

And I know that ol' Donnie Trump loves to get fucked in the ass by a huge Mexican while playing 'La Cucaracha' off some bongo drums attached to Melina's fat ass. XD

Bret had zero issue with dropping the belt in Canada. He just had an issue in dropping it to Shawn Michaels.

The biggest arguments for "Bret should job to HBK' were......

1) Time honoured tradition to job before you leave
2) Contract expiration + possibly showing up on WCW with the title
3) Making HBK look as strong as possible since he was going to be the #1 heel moving forward (to put over Austin at Mania).

However - both points were nullified.

1) Bret had reasonable creative control over his character
2) Legality would have prevented Bret from showing up in WCW with the WWF title.
3) HBK got manhandled by Undertaker in the next PPV before Kane interfered, and so the whole idea of making HBK look strong was moot anyways.

Yes - the screwjob was the best thing that could have ever happened to the WWE......from a business standpoint, but taking into account interpersonal relationships, morality, integrity, etc., Bret jobbing to Undertaker the next night on RAW was arguably the best course of action.

Very sad that you tried to attack my wife and couldn't even spell her name right. Newsflash: Nobody cares what you know, what you think you know, or whether you live or die. You're a flea and I'm the alpha-dog. My normal size hands have seen the inside of more super-models than you've taken showers.

When I'm President you're going to Mexico.

I know your shitty gimmick is essentially "being Don Cherry", but lol that's a bit of a stretch

The issue isn't would Bret go off to WCW without doing the favors. It's would Bischoff open Nitro with "I just signed their world champion, he's coming here Dec xx and this is yet another example of why WCW is superior"

At that point it doesn't matter what Bret does, the cat is out of the bag, and WWF title would look like a joke.

To make an angle of Bret leaving would make any subsequent match seem phony.

The issue to me was always its reasonable for WWE to expect Bret to drop the strap to the guy and on the date they wanted.

I've also heard interviews from people who claim Bret balked at several scenarios where he would drop the title.

I basically think it all comes down to Bret & Shawn's relationship. He stated at the time he would've jobbed to anyone ELSE (he said something along the lines of telling Vince "Hell, I'll job to Lombardi in the Garden, I just don't wanna lose to Shawn") as he felt that Shawn had slighted him and refused to put him over in the past and was generally unprofessional. To be fair, Bret was stubborn, but Shawn was an all around pain in the ass.

Even Kevin Nash says HBK was a prick, thats just how it is in an environment that is dog eat dog.

To me thats not a good enough excuse to refuse to do business. If Vince had said I want you to lose to Shawn in a 30 second match, I would say he has a point, but I'm sure that wasnt the plan.

I think they should have had a Loser Leaves Canada match. Would have been phenomenal to see Bret Hart deported from his own country.

Hmm...wonder if we can send Ted Cruz back to Canada in a similar fashion. I'll talk with my lawyers.

I know he's a liar and all but i would prefer him over our current prime minister

That Prime Minister of yours has a pretty mouth. I wouldn't kick Justine out of my bed.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnnnext/dam...-super-169.jpg

October comes before novemeber. Bad blood happened before survivor series. Shawn wrestled shamrock after bret, not taker

a feeeeehckkkk a yewwwwwww

tho honestly the "fake belt" and "dq finish" argue it bullshit. It's amazing the lengths people other than Bret Hart have gone to keep the "fake belt" to "look strong". Also, let's not act like a dq finish was anymore fucky than that ridiculous montreal finish. Tons of main events end in fucky finishes including several Wrestlemanias.

Given all that happened, and given some of the feedback in this thread, my new solution would have been to have Undertaker defeat Bret Hart cleanly at Survivor Series, with HBK then defeating Taker at the next PPV (par the course).

Wrestlers being wrestlers.

Hart should have changed his tampon and dropped the title

Vince should have removed Shawn Michaels sweaty ballsac from his mouth

The next PPV was not Undertaker. It was Ken Shamrock for the title. HBK was booked weak against him too though.

I don't think we'd be talking about wrestling right now if Mr. McMahon wasn't born that night. It had to happen.

It was all a work anyways. Bret got a hot angle to work with when coming to WCW. Not his fault Bischoff dropped the ball making him a ref and keeping from wrestling for 2 and a half months. When he said he signed him because he was starved for top talent.

Just to clear up a few things throughout the thread:

As mentioned by others. Bret handed in his notice on midnight November 1st. He was obligated to the company for all of November, and had an agreement in place with Vince and Bischoff that he was allowed to stay until December 7th, after his actual deal was over, so that he could lose the WWF title in a four way against Taker, Shamrock and HBK at the DX IYH show. So him losing it at Badd Blood on October 5th wouldn't have crossed anybody's mind at the time. Bret wasn't showing up on Nitro after Survivor Series no matter what.

Bret didn't want to lose in Canada. He can say years later it was a more personal thing with Shawn, and no doubt that's part of it, but the blow by blow account of what happened from Bret and the company was him saying he didn't want to lose in Canada. And to me, that's fine, and here's why.

The anti-Bret attitude is "lose your fake title, what if so-and-so didn't want to lose in America", etc. But I actually think it's a perspective that really misses the obvious. Bret Hart had signed a $2.8 million deal with WCW. He wasn't worth that based on his value to PPVs, ratings or house shows in America relative to other salaries in the business. But to WCW, Bret was the key to breaking into Canada, where they'd never done any business historically. At the time Canada was the second biggest market the WWF had, and it was a huge investment based on Bret's value in Canada. Bret was in a situation where he felt losing to Shawn in Montreal (especially when the match was built mocking Canada) could hurt that value, and he may have been right. Given how much money was on the line on this deal (if WCW had broken through to Canada based on him, long term Bret could get another big contract after this one), I can easily see why he wanted to get out of Canada before he lost the title. And Bret suggested several options for guys to beat him the following week as soon as they were out of Canada if they decided he had to lose before the December PPV, the originally agreed plan.

Vince McMahon is the one who was stupid enough to breach Bret's contract (by not paying his agreed amount, which meant Bret was allowed to negotiate with WCW), and pretty much force him out the company while he was WWF Champion. He was also the one that agreed to the reasonable creative control clause into Bret's deal that let Hart have veto power if he thought what they were asking could damage his value. The people saying "what if I don't lose in America!" are usually guys like JBL who have never been in a position where they have value to an international market and huge potential revenue source as Bret was, so their opinion is worth less than salt grit on a sunny day.

What it really came down to was Vince forced Bret out on November 1st as WWF Champion. The next day, Bischoff went on Nitro and promised a big surprise next week. And Vince shit himself, realising he hadn't thought it through. All of a sudden, the plan that everybody had agreed to (the December PPV) didn't seem so appetising, especially when the internet, hotlines and Canadian newspapers picked up the story two days later. Vince got nervous because he thought WCW announcing they'd signed the WWF champion was damaging, after Vince encouraged the WWF champion to sign with WCW. Right. Clearly, there is some stupidity somewhere.

Legally Vince couldn't force Bret to lose at Survivor Series, and it became a situation where both sides had their own interest in mind and the legal footing where neither of them was in the wrong for wanting what they wanted and standing their ground. But it was Vince's fuck up in the first place. Bret didn't even suggest to beat Shawn, just to get out the match (and let's not pretend this company is above main event DQ finishes on PPV, the very next one had one).

Ultimately both sides are at fault. Bret was being more difficult than he needed to be, probably based on paranoia, realising how much money was at stake, and no doubt there is ego involved (as I imagine there would be when you're champion and being forced out). Vince was just a moron who put himself in an awful position in the first place and did something that was, for his actual intention (get the belt off Bret and not draw attention to the champion leaving) was even dumber. The only saving grace was that this move and his attempt to babyface himself afterwards came off so poorly and was rejected so much he accidentally stumbled upon something great.

^^^^


Great post sir.


Much respect.

He should have been given a farting gimmick in wcw

hb2k has a way of saying what I'm thinking in a far better way than I could ever express it. I would just end up calling people doody heads in the 2nd paragraph and start ranting about HHH or something.

Nice hair doe

The value of Bret in Canada is really really dumb. Shows a lack of understanding of the market. Typical junk you read from the pro Bret crowd.

This market didn't live and die with Bret. Bret left and Canada was still a strong market for WWE without Bret. He was forgotten in a hurry. On the flip side WCW ran what, three or four shows in Canada post getting Bret? Even when WWE was struggling against WCW on cable in the States, they remained #1 on TV in Canada (by a lot).

Bret probably came out of the event with more steam in Canada than he had going in, yet WCW didn't bother to do much in the way of business in Canada. So I guess whatever major Canadian expansion that was planned and that Bret was worried about hurting by doing the favours ONE TIME, wasn't really set in stone. And oh yeah Bret had a guaranteed contact anyway.

No doubt Vince should have forced Bret to drop the strap before telling him to go to WCW, but Bret acted as selfishly as anyone in the history of the business. That's a slap in the face to all the guys who put him over along his way to the top, Shawn included. But I guess we're supposed to forget Shawn ever put him over.

The best part of this story is that in the end Bret's selfishness forced Vince's hand, which created the character that carried the company to unprecedented heights and Bret fizzled when he didn't have Vince protecting his limitations.

lol anyone in the history of wrestling. You are retarded.

Ah, you are right.

Well then, if possible:

-Have Undertaker defeat Bret at Survivor Series. Bret leaves after SS as par the course.

-Undertaker defeats Ken Shamrock in a hard fought contested match which illustrates that Shamrock is close to being on that level. Shawn Michaels defeats Owen Hart.

-Shawn Micheals defeats Undertaker due to Kane interference (as par with what actually happened).

This is so savagely spot on and bret probably has never gotten past they did so much better business without him

Actually, Bret has gone on record stating that he knew Vince was smart/genius enough to take the 'screw job' event and do great business from that (source - Off The Record - Michael Landsberg - 2003).

Bret is and was far more bitter at how poorly WCW used him, and blames Bischoff and Hogan. Bret has also forgiven both Shawn and Vince for the screw job and pretty much holds Hunter responsible for engineering Montreal (if you listen to the sit-down interview with JR/Bret/Shawn, it's revealed that Triple H was the first one to mention the screw job idea outloud.....although all of Vince, Shawn, and HHH were thinking it). Since that sit-down interview, Bret has bashed Triple H in interviews on a few occasions, just as he's done to Hogan and Bischoff.

And also, him not wanting to drop the title is not "the most selfish act ever in the business". Fucking Stan Hansen sent AWA their title back from Japan shattered with a hammer. Wrestling is an inherently selfish business.

Shawn Michaels faked injuries to get out of jobbing titles. Let's get serious here.

Lance storm serious?

Michaels was an insecure bitch who was envious of Bret. If you watch Greatest Rivalries Shawn admits his need for validation from Bret. Watch the ending segments where they are walking along the dock..michaels constantly turn to bret as they talk..such an insecure little bitch.

And this response shows a complete lack of understanding of the most common sense principle of all - in 1997, they didn't know what 1998 was going to reveal. That's the entire fucking point.

Bret perceived losing in Canada would harm his value long term. Vince perceived that Bischoff announcing the WWF Champ was leaving for WCW would have killed his company. They were both probably wrong, but since neither of them are clairvoyant, surprisingly, they didn't know that.

At the time WWF is getting its ass kicked in US, and Bret was very clearly the biggest Canadian draw. Wanna know how many shows WCW ran in Canada in 1998 after it landed Bret? Zero. Did they know the WWF would get the super media coverage of Tyson in November that would help turn things around? No, they did not.

This is a prisoner of the moment situation on both sides, and in your chest out stupidity you demonstrate that not only do you not comprehend what this was really about, but makes me wonder if you were actually watching in 1997 at all to understand the tenor of the times. Vince was terrified of the way his company would look and overreacted, and ended up making it a far bigger deal, and Bret was concerned he'd lose his golden ticket for big contracts going forward, the thing that allowed him to negotiate such a huge number in the first place.

The entire situation was guys worrying about the unknown. What would happen if it went the other way and the possibilities. And your explanation for why thats stupid is by calling on everything they didnt know at the time.

Please, never be a lawyer.

On behalf of the profession of lawyers, dear God, do I second this.

Haven't a bunch of guys, especially Vince Russo and Kevin Kelly, come out and said that Bret shot down doing jobs to anyone throughout the month of November, not just HBK, but other top guys as well. I think that is the most important issue, not that him and Shawn were enemies, but that he refused to do business with the guys he was even close with like UT, Foley, and Shamrock. If that was the case, even on US soil, I don't see what else Vince could have done, really.

Which is hilarious because HBK was 10x better than Bret

False. Shawn at the time was not better than Bret. You could argue post 2002 he was. Which he probably was. But 1996 or 1997 he really wasn't. Maybe he wasn't to your tastes but your tastes are dumb (nah jokes I heart you)

At the end of the day ric flair walked out with the title as well and wore it on Fucking wwf television for months. People try to act like Bret was breaking some sacred rule when a) he wasn't leaving with the belt and b) it had been done when guys weren't treated right on their way out in the past

Also if you are arguing about how the belt was "fake" and and Bret shouldn't have cared about dropping it since it was a dumb fake belt, Vince went to a lot of lengths to keep his fake belt.

It's amazing how hard it is for people to accept that Shawn and Hunter were being weasily littlendipshits, Bret was being his difficult self and Vince was being sleezy. The 3 aren't mutually exclusive.

They were probably miserable having to put up with that disrespectful whiner Bret Hart.

Shawn Michaels was an asswipe. Good in the ring - not believable but good in terms of entertainment. Seeing Sid punch him in the face over and over was enjoyable

In 1995/1996 Michaels promos were decidedly shit. He was fucking annoying.

Loved my Trump gimmick.

Montreal was a work

Haha, Liam schooled CyNick so bad. I missed this thread last year, but I cannot believe that CyNick tried to use the future to explain the past. What? Does the guy not get how time works?

What was the final straw for CyNick's trollness being soundly defeated? I know #1-wwf-fan went on a crusade to encourage people not to interact with him, and BigCrippyZ and hb2k used to Crossface/Superkick him repeatedly, but was there a final showdown? I feel like I have asked this before.

You know what? I've never really commented on Montreal. For some reason it's just an event that never really interested me. It was well and truly probed by the time I really got into the backstage stuff, I guess. I've always scoffed at the idea of it being a work, because it sounds too conspiracy theory for me. But we're in the world of wrestling. If Bret doesn't want to lose and Shawn doesn't want to lose and you need to get the belt off Bret -- I dunno, I'm not going to say that I believe it's a work, because it seems to go against everything I know, but it'd be kind of sweet if it were. Maybe not as sweet as Justin Trudeau, but still sweet.

Give me a reason why vince came to ringside if it wasnt a work. Why would he not use the ear pieces in any of the half a dozen people at ringside? If it werent wrestling youd automatically think it was stupid.

Actually, fucking yeah. Hahaha, I can't believe I've never thought of that.

Well, okay, but isn't it possible that Vince and Shawn knew what they were doing (well, obviously), and that they were going to use it to get Shawn over as a bigger heel and introduce Vince McMahon as a character without Bret knowing?

I'll give you that they definitely knew they weren't going subtle with it.

Nah. Bret was in. If he wasnt Owen wouldnt have stayed. The whole thing was to keep bret from getting sued. Bret promised to Blaze the belt on nitro. Woulda killed the fed no question. War over. Bret and vince used that to get a huge payday for bret and crafted this elaborate song and dance to take the balme off bret.

Without the belt bischoff had nothing for bret. That was the angle when he gave him the contract. So bret just never did anything.

Interesting. So why nothing when Bret's career was over until 2010? Hangover from the Owen death?

Because its the greatest work of all time

Let the last good bit of kayfabe live

If it was a work, then it really is a beautiful bit of kayfabe.

What has Eric Bischoff said about his plans for Bret? Has he come out and said that he instructed him not to lose and to burn the belt on Nitro?

Ive never heard him speak on it. But you tell me why youd pat what he paid and then do nothing with him

I don't think there's a good explanation even if he doesn't come over with the belt. You've for Bret Hart and then do nothing with him? 1998 was a great year for WCW, but fuck me does it make no sense.

At the very least you bring him over as mr wwf and job the fuck put of him. Bare minimum

You think you'd run at least one show in Canada.

Yeah, that really is one the great unspoken ironies of the situation. Everything they were worried about, WCW didnt even fucking bother trying.

I believe this now. Not to mention the fact that he is notorious for protecting his image as a tough guy boss. He no sold two quad tears on live TV and continued an angle. There is no way he would let film out of him stumbling around like a drunk after eating a punch.

Thing is though, that's forgetting all the overcompensating they did for years and all the desperate attempts to control the narrative and babyface themselves in the whole thing that failed miserably.

Yeah, Vince tried to make himself this sympathetic figure in the wake of it. I mean, you could try to make the case that Vince knew exactly what he was doing and just planting the seeds for the heel run, but that's sort of like saying the whole plan was always Daniel Bryan.

One thing I can be convinced of is that Vince wanted himself out there. That's obviously why he was out there. Maybe to babyface himself as "Pop" standing in front of the store? I don't know why he thought that would work. Maybe he just wanted a massive scoop coming out of it?

Nash did say "no" to putting over Warrior though.

That's the stupidest logic anyway. Nash had no legal right to refuse anything his employer asked, Bret did. The "Oh, I'd lose in America!" completely misses the dynamic of WCW bidding so high specifically for the Canadian market. Wrestling is a value-driven game. Nash showed his value in America during his title reign in 1995, so what argument, legal or subjective, does he have anyway?

I'm a huge Bret Hart mark, but looking back after 20 years and knowing what I know today, Bret should of done that job no questions asked. it was the best thing to do for future. Build HBK to build Austin and it really built Shamrock in between all that as well.

you hear of that planned DQ run in ending that Bret thought was happening. That's the dumbest thing ever to have on that PPV. the feud needed to end there.


as a fan though, the whole screwjob and aftermath was the coolest shit to ever happen as long as I've been watching. what a time to be a fan

Loose Cannon,

1. He had creative control in his contract
2. He was an independent contractor, not an employee.
3. Vince was breaching his contract
4. He had 3 more weeks on his WWF contract. This is why he didnt appear on Nitro the next night
5. He said that he would lose to anyone including besides Shawn in Montreal
6. He said he would lose to Shawn if Shawn put him over first because Shawn had disrepected him.

yes I know the background of it all. I'm not saying Bret didn't have the right to refuse the ending. Vince gave him control and he used his card. that's fine.

but from a business standpoint in a wrestling industry, Bret's leaving and they need to build Shawn for the next guy. they already penciled in Shawn to take the title at Survivor Series long before the PPV. They put the title back on Bret at Summerslam to build to the eventual showdown.

Bret has said numerous times he was ready and willing to put Shawn over and drop the belt, but he heard or caught Shawn saying he would never put Bret over again and that pissed Bret off and that's when he decided he wouldn't lose to Shawn.

so right there it's personal vs business. and that's where this whole got messed up. anyway back to my original point. Bret was done in 3 weeks after SS. and yes they could of had Bret drop the title on Raw or whatever, but Survivor Series was the main show. you got to do it there in my opinion. to me, it doesn't mean as much on Raw.

If only Bret lived in the era of 50/50 booking.

The CyNick to respond to this thread after Survivor Series. Stay tuned!

Think in terms of doing the right thing morally, as opposed to "what's best for business."
 

Think in terms of doing the right thing morally, as opposed to "what's best for business."

I get that many people believe that Bret jobbing cleanly to Shawn that night was the best thing to do from a business perspective, but let's consider a few things:

1) Vince and Bret almost had a father-son type relationship. They were THAT close.

2) Shawn was a complete dick to Bret and acted unprofessionally towards him in the past.

3) Shawn wasn't being built as a badass heel that could destroy everyone anyways (i.e. his 'fluke' win over Taker at Survivor Series due to Kane interference).

Given all of this, I think the best solution here would have been the Bret-Undertaker scenario. Even if Bret wasn't under contract, Bret had enough of a strong moral character to 'give back' to the WWE. HBK didn't need to go over Bret cleanly because he was being booked as a cowardly pussy anyways (i.e. his victory over Taker at Survivor Series).

Shawn made it personal. I just annoys me that people ignore those facts. Everyone makes it out to seem like Bret was leaving to WCW the next day - he was not!

People say "oh bret didnt do what his boss asked him to do". If you listen to the audio from Montreal (when bret wears a wire) Vince NEVER suggests dropping the belt. Surely he would have had tried one more time.

If you are contracted to a company - you are not an employee. You have to protect your own business interests. Vince and Bret had a deal where Bret could veto anything he didnt want to do in his last 30 days. He did that. Vince broke the deal.

Shawn's comment about not ever putting Bret over after Bret, despite all the problems, says "hey, I will put your over for the belt. You are safe in the ring with me."

Heyman,

I would have booked it as a run in by Austin and taker. This would lead to DX coming down followed by the Hart foundation. The next night on Raw they could do a fatal four way with Bret having Austin in the Sharpshooter, Shawn Super kicks Bret, Shawn gets choke slammed on top of Bret. Taker cover both of them.

This leaves us with "who is the champion ?"

I do like that idea, but I wouldn't have been a fan of Austin losing at that time. Austin was hotter than a mother fucker at the time and so the last thing you'd want is to have him job........even if it was in a fatal 4 way, and especially in such a compromising position (i.e. being in Bret's sharpshooter).

morally, Shawn was a huge POS and didn't deserve anything he got around that time. if that was today he probably would of been fired in like 1995

i believe they threw around a bunch of ideas. one was Kenny Shamrock winning the belt from Bret before SS and then losing it to Shawn. I think Bret actually came up with this one

I don't blame Bret at all. If he lost at Survivor Series and then snuck over to WCW, he would be heading over as a loser and a coward. Kayfabe wasn't what it was, but it's still an industry that runs largely based off perception. The four-way drop at the next PPV would make sense, but I can imagine why Vince would feel a bit nervous about it.

Working some sort of screwjob angle actually makes perfect sense. I don't believe it was a work, except for on Vince's part setting himself up as a babyface in his own mind or whatever, but it actually does make sense. And this might get "lame" from a lot of people, but doing a phantom title change at a house show makes sense to me too. Bret wins at Montreal and then Shawn magically wins it a house show. Maybe even Bret does a proper job dark? You could go from Undertaker to Shawn, but that would be flipping it around a bit.

He said if he can get a fall on me, good for him.

But yes, you're right. Nash had no trouble putting over the top guys he was competing with for the top spot. He put over Taker clean and made Shawn look like a boss. It would the equivalent of Bret putting over Austin and HBK. I don't think Bret wanted to do that. He wanted to be protected on the way out.

You're right, Bret didn't know what was going to happen. My point about what ended up happening was just that clearly WCW didn't get Bret because he was a Canadian icon and wanted to use him to lead a charge to take the Canadian market. Anyone privy to the numbers, which Bret would have been, would have known WCW wasn't in the same galaxy as WWE in terms of popularity. WCW was barely on TV at that point in Canada. And if it was, it was on tape delay the next day or the day after. WCW wanted Bret for Thunder, no other reason. So either Bret is dilusional for thinking he was being brought in because of Canada or he just didn't want to put over a guy he hated and was jealous of.

I like how you sign that off leaving all of the wrong in Bret’s lap. Maybe Bischoff sold him on the false promise of leading the WCW march into Canada, and Bret was protecting his/ WCW’s interests in good faith.

How about Bret is a little woman and they should have had Shamrock shoot on Bret, have that little crybaby tap out and boom problem solved.

WCW was beating WWF in the numbers at that point in time. Unless you mean solely in Canada -- in which case, WWF had Bret Hart, who WCW were about to get.