Need a circuit of that really

In the UK it's probably the biggest it's ever been.

For a UK promotion to go over there and draw that crowd is pretty good going as a one off. It's a shame the UK doesn't have many of the mid-sized venues. They're stuck with a 2,700 for a place in London before having to do 15-20k seaters on the next tier up.

Would be interesting to know their subscriber numbers tbh. I started watching from Chapter 1 and it's surprisingly fucking good from both a talent and story point of view. It almost feels like it's booked with a long term vision, which is just crazy talk.

I was agreeing with him right up till that last comment.

Pretty much the same The People's elbow was great as the singnature move of a cocky dick who honestly thought he could pin someone after using it

I had to be put on life support when he started winning matches with it though.

I wouldnt call the UK a continent

The end goal is to get the audience emotionally invested and, ultimately, get them to spend money on your product. Whatever means you get there are irrelevant. The old-fashioned approach is that you do so by convincing them of the reality of some aspect of the product (which, as I've said, is a hard sell for new fans who go into it knowing it's fake). But if you get them invested through CHIKARA or Lucha Underground-style fantastical storytelling, or through Ospreay/Ricochet-style feats of athleticism, or through hard-hitting bloody brawls or through Joey Ryan-style comedy routines, or OTT's approach (from whence the Foley/Joey Ryan spot came) of overdoing it to the point that the audience are on the edge of their seat just wanting to know what the fuck could possibly happen next...it doesn't matter, so long as the end goal remains the same.

What hurts the Jim Cornettes of the world is the insistence on that old phrase "killing the business". Kenny Omega is playing a substantial role in driving NJPW ticket sales to a level they haven't been at in years. Omega and the Young Bucks are spearheading a movement that's allowing more independent wrestlers to earn a living outside the WWE than have been able to do so since the collapse of WCW (something Cornette has long complained wasn't possible any more). Joey Ryan is raking in a fair chunk of change from Lucha Underground, indie appearances, sponsorship, and making a small fortune on merch sales.

There probably is a decent argument against over-reliance on comedy spots. But for some workers, that's why they're brought in. And for some companies, being comedy-centric is how they stay in business.

We all have different tastes and I can understand people "drawing their line" for what is too much for their personal tastes, as seems to be the general opinion for Joey Ryan's dick schtick. But if you stick to the argument that it's "killing the business", and the merch sales and gate receipts are telling a different story, you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Once again I just say, watch what entertains you instead of railing on about how one promotion, wrestler, or style sucks.

Australia supposedly is in the early process of a possible UK-like revival occurring there which is why NJPW started investing there.

Asia is a bit weird since India and China are big emerging markets for wrestling but don't think they have any local promotions that are big. Japan is mixed but NJPW themselves are doing better overall than last year.

Could make the case for North America if you only look at the major promotions (AAA, CMLL, GFW/Impact, WWE) but then again a lot of those problems are directly related to management issues than actual interest in wrestling waning away.

UK itself is doing a lot better than like 5 years ago even with ITV's struggles trying to get a major wrestling show made.

NJPW is doing...fine. but the country is not. The only promotion with solid footing is njpw everything else has gone under or is barelty afloat.

The only company stateside...or reallyt north america is WWE. no one else is doing big business. Theres some money south of the boarder and because of that id say NA is better off than the rest of the globe.

EU is dead. Yeah the UK is hot but thats absolutely it. Which is a first. Historically Germany has had money.

AU ive had some friends down that way in the past 2 years and all speak highly of it but its all indy level pay days.

I'm in favor of this on three conditions:

1. The toaster is plugged in.
2. The match takes place in a bathtub.
3. Said bathtub is full of water.

Not to go off topic too much but so much this. It makes me incredibly happy to see how much talent has developed and grown in Progress. A big issue with indies in the us is most of them ripping off PWG instead of having guys grow in these promotions. Half of the indies right now are just Sami Callahan and friends.

It's the reason I support companies like Progress and AIW. If you look at how many guys have come through and grown in those companies, it's crazy. Why bring in 2 huge names to wrestle on your show, when you can use them to help improve younger talent.

I legitimately don't understand your point.

I remember when I used to think like this. I used to think that a general person would "get it" if it was obvious that it wasn't supposed to deceive them, because people are very bitter about wrestling being fake. Then I did a bit more growing and research, and I've completely disowned this point of view.

Part of that was looking at how the people buy into the personas of fighters in the UFC and boxing. I heard a person I generally consider to be intelligent talk about a fighter they legitimately wanted to see get his ass kicked. I pointed out that he's probably stirring up those emotions so you pay to see that happen, and he was completely baffled by the idea.

People don't understand how wrestling works. So many people say it's got fake blood, for example. Until recently, they were just wrong. People get so bent up out of shape about it, but generally speaking, I've noticed more and more people with fond memories of when wrestling was "cool." It's not so much that wrestling itself turns people off, I do think it is how it is presented.

I used to think that if wrestling presented itself as being too serious, that people would piss all over it as ridiculous. But almost everything proves contrary to that point. One of the "hotter" moments the WWE has had in recent years was CM Punk's pipe-bomb. There were people I came into contact with on the internet who were generally somewhat worked by that, and wondered if CM Punk was going anywhere, and whether or not his contract was up. Look at the recent success of Goldberg, or how Brock Lesnar feels so much better than basically any other guy there.

The comedy stuff sucks because there is no hook. It's basically performers winking at the camera and saying "You don't need to feel bad for watching this, because we all know it's fake." But that reeks of self-conscious performing. It's an actor breaking the fourth wall in a script that doesn't require it. There's nothing clever about it in the slightest, and generally speaking, although I used to understand where you are coming from, I don't think people like that sort of shit, because it's extra-geeky. It's like a room full of D&D nerds talking shit about D&D as they pretend to play it. What does it actually achieve?

People are generally pretty dumb. That might sound condescending, and it is. I put myself in that category too. Trump is President. People thought the Punk stuff was legit. People don't think professional fighters work them. People think that reality television isn't scripted. There were also people who believed the WWE was building to Bryan vs. The Miz, or that The Miz somehow cut a "shoot" promo in that Talking Smack segment.

I think a few people inside the bubble, who have become disenfranchised with sports entertainment for so long think that the game is up, so they don't bother trying. They push even further into ridiculousness as if that will provide some sort of meta key into winning over hearts and minds. But agin, what really is the point of seeing a couple of people flop around like fish? At least the douches in Jackass had a plan behind pushing the shopping trolley down the hill. It lowers the art form; not raise it. A true meta approach would be to take it seriously, because no one thinks that it is legit, so treating it as legit and trying to pull that wool over people's eyes in 2017 would require some skill, charm, charisma, hard work and an honest-to-god artistic mind. Fake wrestlers jumping around in a fake sport is stating the obvious. It's going low-ball and ground zero with your thinking. Being a real wrestler in a fake sport? That's a bit more advanced. When you can convince people that shit really matters? That is when you can start getting people talking, and if wrestling is ever going to be "cool" again, you are going to notice people talking about things you see through, as a smarter fan, but that they think might just be legit. Or you'll hear that weird general fan bullshit. They work themselves half the time.

I appreciate the point. I used to subscribe to it. But there is no evidence that this works, and people are too smart to be that dumb and too dumb to be that smart, all at the same time. People actually like structure, and they like to be deceived by certain things. You've just got to work out how to present it in a way that is palatable and doesn't insult their intelligence. There's nothing about this sort of comedy wrestling that doesn't insult intelligence. It's literally dick-waving and people lowering themselves for a laugh. It's borderline clowning, and no one truly respects clowns for more than a minute.

This basically summarizes it all pretty neatly. This sort of stuff is a response to a profession that has disengaged so many of its viewers, to the point where they actually find this a release to some degree. I can understand why people find it cute -- I'm just not impressed by them. It's by no means the root cause of the problem, but it's in no way the solution, and it in no way helps wrestling look any better. It's actually more embarrassing than actual wrestling, to be honest.

It reminds me of a Doug Stanhope joke. He's talking about Norway having a monarchy or something. He basically mocks them for being boot-licking supplicants who have these people in an exalted position. He then says the common retort is "But they don't really do anything." He points out how this is worse. If someone walked in on you watching wrestling in 2017, given how shit it is, you might be fairly embarrassed. But if someone walked in on your watching some of that invisible grenade bullshit, you could at least say "But they're obviously not really fighting." To which an appropriate response is "...Then why are you fucking watching it?!?"

I've not heard any mumbling about anything hot in AU. Maybe it is just something I don't have my ears onto, but I certainly haven't felt any buzz. Good for your friends though, I hope I hear about them soon.

Onto the other places -- hasn't this all been dispelled as myth? I mean, you pretty much covered it, Desty, but isn't the idea that New Japan is in the best position it has been in for years only really congruent when you are comparing it to years it was basically in the toilet? And everything in Japan is pretty much dead, as you said. It's not like you've got New Japan, All Japan and NOAH all striving for dominance. It's New Japan and then DDT doing crazy shit as a goof as "anti-wrestling," but I'm sure that's not exactly like All Japan '95.

This UK being hot thing though. Like, it's getting a lot of internet buzz, but is it getting any legitimate cultural buzz? Or is it just the hardcore fan leftover from the hangover of the Attitude era? I just ask because people make it sound like it's some sort of renaissance, but I just don't see the Queen attending a Progress show anytime soon. I mean, didn't World of Sport fall through because there wasn't enough interest?

Not trying to be cynical, but a legitimate question: How hot is the UK really? Or is it just fans' perspectives that it is hotter than, say, the crippled scene in Iowa by comparison?

Hard for me to answer that as the UK product is primarily UK guys so i dont know what the money is like. Lot of the TNA/GFW guys say it a good market but i dont really know. I think they are more "primed to blow up" than "doing big business" but if they can keep people out of signing big contracts maybe itll happen.

Its Q rating internationally is something maybe some of the locals can speak to. I.E. do non fans even know that these shows exist?

UK wrestling is big, but there's no one company that's massive and a lot of that is to do with the aforementioned lack of the mid-tier arenas. That 5* Wrestling that was going to do the 128 man tournament across the UK was booking out 15,000-20,000 arenas for it hoping the TV exposure would be enough, but they're a promotion created to promote a video game and expected to do that after their second show, so they're small time.

There's a few promotions that are based in various cities but tour a couple of times a year and are big enough that they sell out the 2-4,000 seaters when they tour. They are

PROGRESS
ICW
RevPro
IPW

Then the newer promotions that haven't tried leaving their city yet

PCW
TIDAL
ATTACK! (Which is a comedy federation run by Pete Dunne and Mark Andrews where their most recent show had a NES explode and had weird things happen like Tyler Bate and Pete Dunne Freaky Friday with each other)
Kamikaze Pro

Then you have WCPW, which is weird since the crowd that goes to them apparently doesn't watch any other wrestling. They're a strange company, run by people who made videos about wrestling for WhatCulture, shows uploaded to YouTube and their match with El Patron V Rey Mysterio pulled in over 11million views. It's only been going a year and the quality is OK, so I'm interested to see what happens with them.

There are some legitimate draws out there. Cool King backed me up that Grado kind of became a big enough name out of wrestling that you'll occasionally hear from random people "Hey, you like wrestling, right? That Grado is coming down if you want to go" which is bizarre to me since he did it off a BBC documentary about wrestling and just joking on Twitter.

World of Sport didn't fall through because of lack of interest. 1.25 million viewers on New Years Eve when people are out is nothing to sniff at... But Jeff Jarrett got involved and it went tits up.

The big cities that have these promotions are certainly gaining traction, but without the mid-tier arenas, there's not much room for growth. I think PROGRESS should look at going to the US more often and maybe opening a division there and see how it goes. I think they've got the most potential to break out.

and this is your problem

I dunno, I just don't think you're thinking for yourself. You like Jim Cornette and are getting sucked into his never ending sea of nonsense. The fact that your'e projecting it as a personal slight against Cornette I think makes it pretty clear.

In short, stop being such a mark for Cornette, and for yourself.

#BOOMSHAKALAKA

Jim Cornette is working you into a shoot, brother. Much love. -HH

Still can't imagine someone thinking about Jim Cornette so much on their ride home from work.

lol adamle me arguing with Noid doesn't always mean you have to come in and pile on. Noid is my homeboy I am just CALLING HIS ASS OUT. Wadding piling on is welcome though.

I bet Adamle thinks about Noid posts on his way home from work.

No, he probably thinks about his next "std is a drunk" post and how much everyone will like it.

I bet Noid has a pic of Jim Cornette in his wallet.

Noid probably has a pic of Jim Cornette's wedding (if he was ever married which sounds very unlikely) with his face over Cornette's wife's face. Freak.

I heard STD has been sober now for over a month, sadly no one has noticed since he is still very unintelligent and socially awkward.

I don't see why that would be an appropriate response. There have been about 50,000 different movies and TV shows that have depicted fighting that wasn't really fighting. Wrestling is fake and scripted just like 95% of things you can watch on TV.

I remember people getting all butthurt a decade or so ago when the sports-entertainment branding got stronger and WWE self-described itself as an action soap opera. But it's the fucking truth and it is for all of wrestling. There are characters, storylines, and staged conflict. Whether it's presented as serious or funny - these elements are still there. It just so happens that the people involved are way, way more athletically gifted than the average actor.

Just about everybody I know watched wrestling in the late 90s/early 00s. Many lapsed away because they felt they "outgrew" it and they were a part of the "it's fake and gay" crowd. Trying to present the product as legitimate will never bring those people back because they've already figured out that Santa is not real.

But presenting wrestling in a more open way actually gives them and new fans the message that - hey guys - it's just like any other fucking TV show. Except in this TV show you're encouraged to participate, and that makes it unlike anything else you can watch.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Maybe Dick Guy can explain why I make more money than he does not being employed. It's called talent--ya oughtta try some <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline">@JoeyRyanOnline</a> <a href="https://t.co/ekfAjBnSAl">https://t.co/ekfAjBnSAl</a></p>&mdash; Jim Cornette (@TheJimCornette) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheJimCornette/status/894586706258743297">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I would be willing to compare tax returns on that. <a href="https://t.co/CCq2VLW64A">https://t.co/CCq2VLW64A</a></p>&mdash; Joey Ryan (@JoeyRyanOnline) <a href="https://twitter.com/JoeyRyanOnline/status/894588253063524352">August 7, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Cornette working like a motherfucker, Joey Ryan biting.

Then I give them the same response I give everyone who asks that. I explain to them it's not about replicating a real fight. It's about two or more people telling a story without saying a word.

Also, why do you give a fuck what people see you watching? Anyone who judges you based on what television you watch is a faggot and not worth worrying about anyway. Check your insecurities bruh

Boom goes the dynamite

Yeah, but the same scenario could be applied to other people, lol. It's not Cornette-specific. The argument is as old as art, frankly. Writers of fiction criticizing those who went too exploitative, filmmakers who show too much and don't play the rules, etc.

Another example: Say Quentin Tarantino had a problem with Harmony Korine (and I'm not saying he does). He thinks his style is too raw and discredits cinema, or whatever. Then Robert Rodriguez, in the middle of this public disagreement, goes and co-directs a Dogme style film with Harmony Korine. Would Tarantino, in that predicament, have a case to say not only "That movie sucks," but also "I feel betrayed by a friend." That's all I'm asking, you cock-munch. When does taking certain bookings become "sleeping with the enemy?"

I'm not saying Cornette should feel that. I don't think he will, honestly. He seems like more the sort to focus on why it sucked, and why Mick should probably make his bumps matter at this stage. But I know I am a passive person outside my "gimmick" here, so I was wondering if people thought that was a bit of a shitty thing for Mick to do and if Cornette's personal issues with Ryan enter the equation at all. You obviously think they don't. Cool, I actually agree, but I don't know if I trust my opinion on that.

As for not thinking for myself. That's your opinion. It's more of that projecting stuff again, but you're entitled to it. I deplore the things Cornette said recently about mental illness. I wouldn't blindly defend the man of any crime. I like him on wrestling and politics though. I'm still yet to hear reasonable criticism of his actual points when refuting him, lol. It's always the straw-man ad hominem excuse to avoid addressing his very real points. But the guy can say some trashy things, no doubt. So whatever, think what you want, I suppose.

Lol, I don't even interact with the tosser anymore. I don't like making those projections that bother me so much, but I'm fairly certain he's a very miserable person. The bitterness just legitimately seeps through his posts. Honestly hope the dude is okay.

It was a hypothetical situation to demonstrate taste. I don't give a fuck, but I have higher standards than that self-conscious shit, which is kind of exactly my point.

People don't think of wrestling as a television show like any other. They just don't. That's why they are so butt-hurt about it being fake. I get your mentality and where you are coming from, but it's never worked before, and I'm pretty sure it won't ever work.

There is an ironic relationship people have with television, and many papers have been written about it. Reality television is usually the focus, but I'm sure you can do it about wrestling too. It doesn't work the way you are describing. When it comes to reality television, people generally cover their shame-watching with the label of "ironic." You've probably heard people say this about The Bachelor, Big Brother, or whatever the fuck. Shows that don't bother to try and honor this desire for there to be some sort of ironic/genuine relationship are fucked. If it's too fake, people see through it and don't feel they can have the genuine investment worth using the ironic cover for.

This is a thing. It's called "The Irony Bribe" or something like that. I get you might not be making an argument for comedy wrestling, and might be instead arguing just against the super-serial stuff, but that irony is already there in that the business is exposed. And this is where I'd begin to repeat myself -- that would be truly going meta, etc.

Something that aims to be bad is quite a juvenile, immature, unpolished and uncreative approach to challenging any sort of established trope anyway. The "so bad it's good" argument really only works for guilty pleasures and things that were sincerely trying to be good. Trying to write something bad artistically is 15 year old boy syndrome. You're much better off trying to make something good about something bad. You don't want your message itself to be bad. That's just bad.

There is in no way, shape, or for a way you can say what Mick did was "shitty" to anyone. There are definitive arguments that it was most certainly lame, because of the nature of the spot. But at this stage of his life Mick Foley can do what he wants. In fact, Mick Foley has given his body to the business enough that the likes of Cornette and yourself should probably just shut the fuck up and let him do wtf he wants.

Either way it's no worse than his recent half hearted run as RAW GM.

I'd be quarter hearted with those shitty scripts and angles.