You think Superman saying there's no hope in this world, and his dad suggesting to him as a kid that maybe he should've left a bus full of children to die, is representing Superman as a character well?

If you read DC comics please point out a Superman take that has him saying someone has to die and there's no hope in this world. That's not a Superman line. And I'm not even much of a fan of the character.

If you can't watch Man of Steel and Wonder Woman and objectively see the differences in both their respective narratives and their development of their title characters, maybe you should read more critical articles, because they'll point you in the right direction.

It doesn't mean you can't like the films, but at least have an understanding of why one worked incredibly well and why the other is so divisive.

I thinks its a good representation of Superman in a modern skeptical society which DC has created. I understand his father not wanting his powers to get out. He wasn't Superman at that point and became Superman as the movie progressed.

Not the biggest Superman fan either and don't have any Superman comics. Mostly Batman, JLA, and Booster Gold.

I understand the difference in the character development between Man of Steel and Wonder Woman but I still feel they told similar stories. Both starting as a kid with parents trying to hide who they truely are and then becoming a hero by defeating an enemy from their orgin. Yeah Wonder Woman took more initiative when becoming the hero but Superman had alot more at risk and was more conflicted by the world around him.

I am a huge Superman fan and can say that he was not represented good at all. Even in a "modern skeptical society".

My brother is fucking Superman fan boy and loves it. Is it a good representation of Superman, maybe not but I felt it was realistic one. Most the movie was him figuring out who he was and what his purpose was but in a conservative way which his parents were mostly responsible for. Yeah I thought it was strange for his Dad to not want him to save people but at the same time it makes sense.

Tell your brother I will fight him

The general idea of the story they told is similar. The quality in which they told it, both in execution, character development, and overall structure, is why Wonder Woman was praised while Mos was crapped on.

You one WW's motives from the start, you saw her grow as the movie progressed, and there's a character arc for her. Supes just meanders into the costume, you're never quite sure why he's doing it, other than feeling obligated, and his support group outside of his biological dad contradict themselves. Pa Kent says he'll be great some day but then tells him to hide his greatness. It's dumb.

And there's nothing modern about Superman saying there's no hope. That's a gross misunderstanding on his character, as a man in his world. He's the exact opposite.

I mean I get what Snyder was trying to do with Superman (I think)
The general complaint is that his a happy go lucky boyscout who is ridiclously op

We are watching him turn into that boyscout movie by movie his uncertainty about what he is supposed to do with his powers I except that I get that they tried to show that for all his power he is very human and thinks of himself as such

These movies are supposed to be his journey to that shining, annoying beacon of "hope"

But Snyder and that other guy are just so bad at it we didnt really need 3 movies to show that Wonder Woman did it in one.

Honestly, Captain America's character arc from the first film thru Civil War would have been perfect for Supes. He was bright eyed and idealistic about what he was doing to start, only to further plug himself into morally compromising positions where he realised things aren't so black and white.

If they'd have tried that with Supes it would've worked. It sounds like JL is a damage control and course correction film, which is all for the better. I want thesecharacters to continue to get chances on the big screen. What Warner and DC were doing wasn't working. WW started a turn around. Hopefully JL will at least hold the fort down going into 2019's Aquaman and development of the Matt Reeves Batman, as well as the Flash movie

I mean, kinda? He hasn't really grown into anything. He was pretty hopeless going into his fight with Batman. He went the wrong direction from mos. I too get what the idea was, it was just poorly executed. They've still presented no reason as to why he WANTS to be Superman. I'm contrast, Diana states very early on in the film why she WANTS to help people. It's a clear desire for her. Not so much for Clark.

I'm hoping they change that and steer his character into the right direction. We deserve new, good Superman movies.

Didnt mean to post that I was not done

It is going to be very hard for them to get Superman back on track when their Clark Kent is so broken/non-existant. I think they almost need to do a soft reboot of Superman. I mean, they probably can't fit that into Justice League, but definitely the next Superman movie.

Also the inspiring part of Superman much like Wonder Woman s that he knows humans are bastards but he chooses to do what he does anyway because he does think people CAN be better

Can't they? I mean he's dead/in a coma He could come back with a more positive outlook he got Batman to stop murdering people(I'm sorry I mean " causing people to die by proxy") so he sees the effect he has on people even Batman who probably thought himself to be too far gone
It doesn't have to be a 180 into a super upbeat guy just y'know more of an optimist.

Lol if by proxy means shooting at people with machine guns, then sure lol.

I've read the JL version is very much a different, more standard version of the character. Hopefully it's true.

And I agree. Supes is undeterred in his belief in the good in people. That's his contrast to Batman. They haven't presented that yet. Certainly not in the last one where's openly saying he's going to kill Batman if needed.

I hope they turn him around tho. Having him die and come back as a more familiar take could end up being a good thing.

I said by proxy because thats how Snyder described Batman straight up killing motherfuckers

Lmao fucking Snyder

The 'impossibly honorable' character archetype works because of its contrast to the modern world. It worked for Cap in the movies, it kinda works for Funimation's Goku, it's so descriptive of Optimus Prime fans revolted at certain lines he said in the 4th movie. You don't 'update' these kinds of characters, no matter how cheesy you think they are.

Updating them makes them different characters in a familiar costume

There was a panel in New52's first JL arc where Superman wacks a parademon with a trailer or something and he's like, "Smile for me," or some one liner like that and I lost it. I was done with New52 right there. And any time I looked back it was more silliness; Diana's a bimbo who needs a man suddenly, Cyborg just waltz into the JL like bitch Mr Miracle can give you a Boom Tube, and they had this really weird thing with Superman's costumed adventures concurrent with some ongoing year 1 type deal with him in jeans being a jerk to people. Supergirl is shit, Superboy was rendered unsalvageable, etc.

Thank GOD for Rebirth.

Though I still miss his underpants on the outside of his pants

QFT

The portrayal of Wonder Woman made me want to head to Burbank and burn DC building to the ground.

Really enjoyed the New 52 Wonder Woman series, though..... Azarello's run was p good.....

I only read Batman's run on new 52 and it was fucking stellar.

But yeah. Superman's endless hope and optimism clash with today's society. It's what makes him relevant. Zach Snyder just didn't know wtf he was doing and drove the character into the ground. Thank God it sounds like we're getting an actual solid representation of him in JL

Only thing I liked from New 52 was Green Lantern, but I dunno if that even really counts, as it was one of the only books to keep it's continuity unaltered.

Didn't read that. Batman Zero Year is maybe my favorite Batman story

Read a bunch of new 52 stuff and there was a bunch i liked (And some I hated). It just took me a few years to get into it at all because I had to get over the loss of the old universe.

I had an issue hold at the local comic shop. Gave it up after rebirth as I didn't find it as compelling for the main Batman storyline

Batman survived New52 because other than dropping BatDick and the Batman Inc., the status quo was closest to typical Batman. Also Court of Owls is one of the coolest recent additions to the Batman mythos.

Does it matter that I haven't watched Suicide Squad or Wonder Women before I watch this? I'm struggling to find the motivation to watch those films, but at least curious to see Justice League.

Just watch it. You either wanna follow the series or not.

Watch Wonder Woman. Suicide Squad sucks and is inconsequential

In defense of Suicide Squad, finished product aside, the idea that Superman's death motivated Waller to put together a team of freaks to deal with meta-human threats in insane black ops missions covers a specific political corner of the DCEU. Not to mention the post credits scene that shows that their own potential risk is not unnoticed by a key character of the DCEU. The actual movie was kinda all over the place, but I wouldn't call it inconsequential in the same way, say, Ant-Man was (nothing really happened that affected the MCU in any substantial way).

It's inconsequential in that nothing that happened in that film has any bearing on Justice League. Yes, the motive was based on the death of Superman. But the actual movie itself, it's characters, and what occurs has zero impact on the JL film.

You don't need to watch it to watch and understand Justice League. They're not really connected. Even the post credit scene is not needed, seeing as Bruce already hacked Luthor.

Wonder Woman on the other hand has a main character in it, developing her reasoning and motives. Apparently JL gives her time to expand on it.

In terms of actual characters and direct plotlines, sure, but I was thinking the 'macro-plot' or rising metahumans in the DCEU. I feel SS added to the overall idea.

You gotta remember Kalyx sees the whole DCEU as one movie.

This is true.

As do I. I just don't see SS as an integral part of the universe.

I agree that DC does mantle passing better in general but I would honestly put Bucky's transition into the new cap up against any in DC's history. It was excellently done, and one of my favorite stories ever. I'm pretty much all digital now, and donated almost all my trades to libraries, but I still have all my Cap trades from the Winter Soldier all the way to Death of Captain America. The problem was that Marvel doesn't have the balls to stick to their status quo changes and they put Steve back in the costume WAY too soon.

As for FemThor, that's not even a mantle passing. Jane picking up the hammer is one piece of a large overarching plot that began with the Godbreaker story.